Darlington Nagbe

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by xbhaskarx, Jan 11, 2011.

  1. vexco

    vexco Member+

    Nov 2, 2013
    So what you're saying is you're not going to answer. Cool.

    Nagbe doesn't have the defensive chops for the "8". He's not a great 2-way player and he's not good enough in the final 3rd to negate his issues defensively. That was my point. His assist numbers will never reach even "good" levels because his passes in the final 3rd often lack vision. He's also played outside mid more than as the 8, where he should be putting up some sort of numbers. He hasn't, though.

    What @jond said is exactly the issue, and what I said before. He's a great dribbler but at some point you have to do something with the ball.

    @kba4life1 it really doesn't matter. Zardes has played as an outside mid and contributed much, much more than Nagbe. I will take production over a player who deceives the eye but does nothing.
     
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  2. beerslinger23

    beerslinger23 Member+

    Jun 26, 2010
    This is nonsense. The reason Kylian Mbappe and Dembele went for a hundred million plus is their stats. Stats tell the whole story in the proper context. Your numbers mean nothing nonsense is dangerous and allows subjectivity too much headroom in the analysis of real matches, player performance and other things around the game.
     
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  3. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    1, The score is a stat. Does that stat matter?
    2. I love all the geniuses in here who say stats don't matter when all the people with millions of dollars on the line think they do. If you don't understand stats, that doesn't mean stats don;t matter. It means you're not smart enough to understand them. I don't understand quantum physics, but I don't believe that therefore they don't exist. Because I'm not a moron.
    3. I told y'all a long time ago that Nagbe is our best player at moving the ball from the back third to the front third. That's the beginning and end of his useful skill set at the international level. If we're in a situation where that skill is needed (tough road matches, maybe a World Cup match against a clearly better team) he should start. Otherwise, we have better options.
     
  4. butters59

    butters59 Member+

    Feb 22, 2013
    Nagbe is a nice luxury complimentary player. He gives zero defense. He is a left wing with a strong DM behind him or he is #8 with 3 good attacking players ahead of him plus hard working wingers next to him. Putting 3 softies FJ, Villafana and Nagbe ahead of MB who isn't a strong tackler either is a receipt for disaster.
     
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  5. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    Sentimentatilty is fine, willful ignorance, not so much. Soccer analytics are just a fact of life in serious leagues and have been for some time.

    Per WS, Nagbe has had 10 starts at a-mid for Portland, 8 of which occurred during the '15 MLS Cup winning season when he had decent support.

    For those 8 starts, he had 22 key passes, 2 assists and 2 goals. There appears to be nothing wrong with his distribution in the final 3rd when playing a-mid.

    Reyna had 19 assists in 120+ caps. Again, the 8 spot has generally not a been significant source of goals and assists for the US.

    Jones was pretty unique in that he had 2 assists and 2 goals in 8 games worth of minutes of WC and Copa action. For an 8, that was pretty spectacular and not really replaceable, at least by a single player.

    Nagbe is a center 'circle 8' when playing the position. He holds possession, draws fouls, and circulates the ball. If in the CR game, Arena wanted creativity from the central position then he should have changed up the formation. If he wanted creativity from the CMs in a flattish 442 then he is probably SOL as far this pool is concerned. '14-'16 JJ is not coming back.
     
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  6. MPNumber9

    MPNumber9 Member+

    Oct 10, 2010
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Naaaah. This very thread is probably a testament to why that is wrong.

    An 8 usually makes the pass before the killer pass, which I don't think Opta has a name for. You just plain have to know what you're looking for as you watch the game. Just like everyone should've noticed how many times Nagbe broke the press with his elusiveness, and broke the defensive lines with his dribble. Don't know why people are talking about his defense or chance creation, the US played pretty good defense except for two important moments (that had nothing to do with Nagbe).
     
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  7. Bob Morocco

    Bob Morocco Member+

    Aug 11, 2003
    Billings, MT
    They, or someone, quantify it with something called xG Chain. Meaning what's the cumulative xG value of the shots at the end of the possessions a player participated in.
     
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  8. tomásbernal

    tomásbernal Member+

    Sep 4, 2007
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think you're correct on your third point (not going to wade into 1 and 2). Given that I believe that to be true, starting Nagbe against Costa Rica was the right choice--not the formation Bruce put out there, but starting Nagbe. Bruce knew the Ticos would press hard, which they did for 90 minutes. Nagbe was the major reason the US was able to bring the ball forward, even if they couldn't, collectively, figure out how to break down the defense.
     
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  9. sXeWesley

    sXeWesley Member+

    Jun 18, 2007
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    4-4-2, empty bucket, dual pivot, whatever you call it, is an outdated and naive formation that plays to our weaknesses as a whole and Nagbe's in particular. We have zero old school wingers that beat their man to touch and pump crosses in and we have zero steel in midfield. It should come as no surprise that Nagbe, Johnson and Pulisic looked poor in that shape against that team.

    In a general sense Nagbe is another imperfect puzzle piece in our collection, that provides something of extremly high value and is in short supply, but that needs to be properly balanced with the other pieces around him. There is absolutely no one that compares to him as a relief valve in midfield and as a connector in transition from defense to attack. His defense is fine, it is just of the same variety as Bradley's, a shadower, a pickpocket, basically soft.
     
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  10. Jlpurelove

    Jlpurelove Member

    Jun 3, 2016
    charlotte nc
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Peru
    Stats don't tell the whole story period. Put CR7 on Betis or Alaves and CR7 does not have half the goals that he has with Real Madrid. Zico and Maradona did not score half the goals that CR7 and were both much better players.
     
  11. Jlpurelove

    Jlpurelove Member

    Jun 3, 2016
    charlotte nc
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Peru
    Really? The score is stat? So you don't watch the games? So according to you, stats are useful in the right context. So you think soccer is like baseball where we can use stats to measure how effective a pitcher can be against one hitter. Like I said, if you don't understand how soccer is played and how to evaluate the quality of player, sure, try using stats.
     
  12. Black Tide

    Black Tide Member+

    Mar 8, 2007
    the 8th Dimension
    These are incredibly bad arguments. And it shows that you do not understand how statistics work. I bet dollars to doughnuts that if you ran the regressions on the teams that CR played on vs Zico and Maradona you would see that CR has played on teams with statistically better players at every position. It would also show you why soccer is a weak link sport unlike say basketball which is a strong link sport. That is to say, soccer teams in generally do not get markedly better by adding super stars (strong link) but instead get better by replacing weak link players with average or above average players. Which is to say having players with a higher floor than ceiling across the board reduces mistakes and creates more chances. Now if you have the ability to put a super star at every position well that should lead to complete domination of a league if they can play together.

    Now if you take the above and you look at players that have similar floors you can start to look at individual stats and abilities. At the national team level most players are going to be similar floor wise so we can start to look at individual contributions.

    Midfielder A has played a total of 405 min. Has 1 goal 0 assists completes 85% of passes and creates 2 scoring chances a game. Player A is also strong with the ball at his feet but average in the final 3rd and defensive thirds of the field and average decision making when playing

    Midfielder B has 600 minutes has 5 goals 1 assist completes 85% and creates 2 scoring chances per game. Player be is average with the ball at his feet, but has above average speed and is average across the entire field in play and decision making.

    Who do you chose?

    Now your argument of soccer vs baseball is also bad. All sports will have to look for different stats to measure. Sure there will be some over lap but most will not apply. Pitching stats will not play any role in soccer as pass percentage obviously will not play any roll in baseball. But lets for a minute use the same idea as what you proposed.

    I give you the penalty shoot out.

    So as far as i can tell (and if anyone has any info on this I would love to see it. or prehaps work on a case study for it) no one has ever done the type of statistical analysis of right footed shooter vs letf handed keeper. And I kind of wonder if there would be a any advantage... But one thing to keep in mind is that the team that shoots first wins 63% if time. that is a huge hole to dig your way out of, if your team shoots second. Now maybe as a shooter you would be interested to know which way a keeper is more likely to go when the kick is taken. And you already hear players talking about watching keepers to see if they have a bais to one side. That is statistics. Now imagine a whole team with that knowledge that keeper A is 3 times more likely to go left on the first shot, 2 times as likely on the second shot , 8 times more likely to go to the right on the 3rd shot. That is huge. But again that is a hypothetical.

    But lets go back to the player that talks about watching a keeper to see which way he is likely to go in a given situation. Does that player not know how to watch and play the game? Or is he using a basic statistical analysis to improve his odds of scoring and winning?
     
  13. y-lee-coyote

    y-lee-coyote Member+

    Dec 4, 2012
    Club:
    --other--
    This is very intriguing on many levels, thank you for the food for thought. I am not going to comment on it. It was an appropriate response to the off topic discussion at hand, but I don't want to further the derail this thread.

    :thumbsup:
     
  14. comoesa

    comoesa Member+

    Aug 13, 2010
    Christen Press's armpit
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm not going to go in on him until Arena gets the formation and lineup right and then he has a bad game.

    Arena realy shit the bed with tactics, lineups, and formations and no one looked good.
     
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  15. MPNumber9

    MPNumber9 Member+

    Oct 10, 2010
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Considering I don't know the formations, line-ups, opponents, venue or competition level (at minimum) all of that information about players A and B is pretty useless to me. Does midfielder A play on a poor team in a good league, or a good team in a weaker league? Is his team defensive, or attack-oriented? Etc etc. You can aggregate all those data, sure, but it'd be easier to just watch the game.

    Which is not to say stats aren't useful, but they usually help to "prove" what you already see.
     
  16. DCUSA

    DCUSA Member+

    Jan 14, 2006
    Virginia
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Good points in here, on both sides of the Nagbe debate. My take is he has the talent, but not the mentality.

    The first step for me would be to show full commitment to the cause, with and without the ball. With the ball, more purpose and commitment to excellence. I don't think he holds himself to a higher standard, he's a little too in love with his skill set. Psychobabble, I know, I'll own it.

    Without the ball, he is presently half assed to my eyes. Yoiu can't always slag off blocking a lane or jog back and call for switches. He needs to want to win his battle, every time, instead of being very much a passenger at times.

    If he could only do that, I think people would be more likely to appreciate what he does do and forgive what he doesn't.
     
  17. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    LA Galaxy
    United States
    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    #1767 Excellency, Sep 8, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2017
    If there's a more boring player than Nagbe I don't know who it would be. l think he puts the rest of the squad to sleep. They look like somnambulists and the team picks up every time he comes off.

    I was watching J.Gonzalez play with Monterrey and the Univision guys commented that he plays with a lot of personalidad. Too true.
     
  18. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    LA Galaxy
    United States
    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Zardes for offense and McCarty/Roldan for defense is a better choice. Heck, McCarty and Roldan probably have more goals in them than Nagbe (assists/goals) even if used in a defensive profile.
     
  19. DCUSA

    DCUSA Member+

    Jan 14, 2006
    Virginia
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I have no problem with an inform Zardes. He needs to get it going for LA to get back in the mix. I think his touch is inconsistent, not necessarily bad. When he's on he gets on the end of stuff and will play end to end.
    The thought of McCarty in a WC is a nightmare scenario to me, less said the better.
    I think Roldan will get a real shot at making the team, and he should. He will have a nice showcase in the playoffs.
     
  20. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    LA Galaxy
    United States
    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    OK but Roldan actually isn't the strongest when it comes to picking out the right pass from defending third to attacking third. The best guy for that is Delgado. Hwvr, there's a lot of work to do there. It's possible Bradley + Delgado + Zardes would not be strong enough defensively so we would need a 3rd cb.
     
  21. DCUSA

    DCUSA Member+

    Jan 14, 2006
    Virginia
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I always want a ball winner but maybe I'm behind the times because the US choose to play without one. If that's because the US thinks they don't have a good one, or that Bradley is the ball winner, I just disagree with that.
     
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  22. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    LA Galaxy
    United States
    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    No, I agree with you. I made up a simple Simon saying of what midfield and forwards do. Forwards get behind the defense and midfielders win the ball and pass thru midfield. At Toronto, Delgado tends to combine with teammates to win the ball. I call him a beta wolf because he has a pack mentality. Jones was more Germanic in the way he went about things. Zardes tends to win balls through positioning and intercepting (when he plays in midfield). . Early on I touted Polster for the squad because I felt he would be a good ball winner. He's playing fullback for club now.

    Thank you for pointing out we don't play with a ball winner. That's one black mark on the board for Arena. Thinking he can get away with playing a converted MLS midfielder at fullback at the international level? That's two black marks. Then there's Beasley.

    I'm beginning to wonder
     
  23. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    Against Honduras, Nagbe's defensive numbers(int, recoveries, tackles, drawn fouls) were similar to those of the US right mid.
     
  24. sXeWesley

    sXeWesley Member+

    Jun 18, 2007
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    THIS.

    The rest of the discussion about wanting more of a ball winner, Zardes, Delgado, Bedoya or anyone else being a better fit, etc. All hinges on what our core philosophy and formation is, particularly in the midfield.

    Nagbe is a phenomenal shuttler and outlet from pressure in the midfield, he is average at pretty much everything else. He is a flawed piece that should be used or not based on the balance of other flawed pieces around him. IMO Pulisic goes in the middle as the first name on the team sheet, in the number 10 role and then other pieces start slotting in around that, in some configurations he fits and in others he sits.
     
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  25. DCUSA

    DCUSA Member+

    Jan 14, 2006
    Virginia
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think Nagbe can be legitimately criticized regardless of formation or philosophy, because the basis of full team commitment has to be there in any case and it isn't, imo.
    If that's just not who he is, but the US doesn't mind, I don't like it but I'll root for him all the same. For all I know, they've had these conversations, everyone is aware of his shortcomings in terms of mentality and are moving forward with him in the mix anyway.
     

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