Yes, I agree. I don't think Nagbe will become as good a player as Landon Donovan. I think it will be awhile before we see another player as good or as influential to the national team as Landon Donovan. I simply meant that Nagbe could become Donovan's successor in terms of the role played for the national team. A pacey hybrid attacking midfielder / withdrawn forward who is a good finisher, can spray the ball around and create for others, and functions as one of the playmakers and catalysts of the attack. And Nagbe would be gaining citizenship conceivably near the twilight of Donovan's national team career.
The Nagbe is a CAM angle would work MUCH better if Nagbe blew Agudelo out in the assist area. But as you see from the stats, he doesn't even provide more helpers than does Agudelo, who has the ball at his feet MUCH less than Nagbe does (or should) in central midfielder. The game is about production. And per minute, Agudelo outproduces Nagbe significantly in BOTH scoring AND producing goals. If it were one, your argument would have more merit ...... but both? Nah. You gotta start dealing with facts at some point, no matter how much potential players have. Potential simply gets coaches fired. The angle that several posters used here to disparage the numbers by pointing to the goals comparison and ignoring the assists comparison I provided in the same sentence is very telling, in and of itself.
First of all- I never referenced the stats- other than to say that Nagbe would have more goals and assists if Porter had played him in the middle (that is Valeri's position). I stated that his best position is as a CAM, a position he hasn't regularly played this year, in reference to what pundits and Timbers observers have said, and from watching his involvement and production increase dramatically when he is moved to the middle. Second- as I'm sure you're aware- statistics are not wholly telling when discussing soccer- and only really useful in player comparisons when those players play the same position- of which Nagbe and Agudelo do not. What was at issue in my post was which player would be have a greater impact at the NT level, which is mostly speculation given the dearth of evidence. That said, Agudelo could be a useful player at the NT level but as an area of need his inclusion is not pressing. Conversely, a player with Nagbe's qualities is sorely lacking for the U.S. atm. If you've watched Nagbe's performances in the last two years it would be hard not to acknowledge that what Nagbe does well, namely beating players off the dribble and unbalancing defenses, is what is needed in the current U.S. setup (see games v. Scotland, Austria etc.). Outside of perhaps Fabian Johnson, there is no current U.S. player who possesses the guile, speed, shiftiness and technical ability that Nagbe would provide. Of course Donovan was that guy, a player with incredible efficiency in production that Nagbe will most likely never approach, but his days playing that role seem to be a thing of the past.
I was blown away that the MLS 24 Under 24 voting had Nagbe #1. In my mind if there's any argument over the top spot, it's between Diego Fagundez and Juan Agudelo. Don't get me wrong, Nagbe is very good, I'm looking forward to seeing him play for the US. But it's not just a comparison of production (were Fagundez and Agudelo fare quite well in terms of goals+assists / 90), what about the teams around them, Nagbe has his college coach Porter, and is on one of the top teams in the league, playing with guys like Valeri and Will Johnson. Even more important is age, it's never a good idea to ignore age differences when comparing young players who are still devloping. How good could Fagundez and Agudelo be when they're 5 and 3 years older, respectively?
Blown away? It was 24 under 24. Not 24 under 24 except we'll rank younger players higher because they potentially be better than the older players in the 24 (or they may not be). If you only look at goals+assists to judge talent you will be sorely mistaken. All three are very good Nagbe is just as good whether you agree with it or not. There's a reason that Portland made it to the semi's and alot of that went to Nagbe.
Landon Donovan was already Landon Donovan because he had a National Team to play for which Nagbe doesn't and has no International stage. If Landon Donovan never played for the US and MLS was the only comparison then they aren't far off. If MLS stats play a role Landon had 6/10 and 12/6 when he was with SJ and LA at age 22/23, very similar to Nagbe's 9/4 for Portland this year.
And there you go. Going back to the original topic that sparked this Agudelo vs Nagbe debate aka the work permit. The objective measures used to grant work permits were insufficient for Agudelo but non existent for Nagbe. All that's left is subjective stuff and Agudelo's failed appeal showed that even testimony from EPL legends are not sufficient in and of themselves to grant a permit.
I think you got me. Well played. I should have said if you ONLY LOOK AT STATS...... I've seen them both and Landon Donovan is the best American player ever up to this point. I feel Darlington Nagbe will be a critical contributor to the future success of the USMNT starting behind the 8 ball starting at age 25. He brings tight space ball control through midfield that the US team has never seen. I think he will be considered one of the best ball skill possessors of the ball the US has ever seen. Being a critical component of the future of USMNT. He obviously won't approach Landon Donovan's goal totals or longevity. I think Nagbe as more of a John O'Brien. Very talented, top 10 talent but short International career.
OK, I don't think anyone is saying Nagbe will every be better than he was/is. But its tough to be so definitive when one player starts his MLS career in an era of talent 2001 gets to play in a World Cup at age 19/20 and the other player doesn't get to play in a World Cup until age 27 comes into a league in 2011 that has more talent and has comparable stats at age 23. Its not so black and white. Ah see what I did there, I made a funny Even if Nagbe never gets to be better than Donovan after all is said and done I still think he'll be a pretty darn good player.
No. By age 23, Donovan had played 127 league and playoff games and had 58 goals and 46 assists. This is an average of 11.6 goals per season and 9.2 assists per season. It amounts to 1.28 points per game (goals counting 2 points). Nagbe had a fine 2013 with 10 goals and 4 assists, but his overall totals are paltry, averaging 0.44 points per game over his much shorter career. Even Nagbe's career 2013 season is below Donovan's average by age 23 for goals per season and his assists are far below it. The difference is particularly noteworthy regarding assists where Donovan's 9.2 per season dwarfs Nagbe's 2.67 per season and even exceeds Nagbe's career total of 8 assists.
Okay, but if we compare college careers, it's all Nagbe. Was Donovan ever a SuperDraft pick? Didn't think so - case closed!
Probably should be comparing Nagbe to K.Rowe, not Donovan Rowe had 7 goals and 8 assists in 2013 in 2500+ minutes for Revs Nagbe had 9 goals and 4 assists in 2013 in 2800+ minutes for Timbers They seem very similar to me. Donovan is in a whole different class.
Yes. You fail to recogonize that I agree with you Donovan is a better player with what we have to work with. You also fail to recognize that you are comparing a almost complete career to one 3 yrs old. You fail to recognize it may have taken Nagbe 2 yrs to get close to Donovan's statistical plateau. You fail to recognize its a different league 10 yrs ago and even Landon Donovan would have had much better defenders to play against. You fail to recognize that goals and assists are just two indicators and soccer talent doesn't always rely on goals and assists. They are different talents and provide different benefits going forward that can;t soley be measured in numbers. Nagbe does alot of the possessive dirty work through midfield to get into the areas where his teammates can score and assist.
This. The USMNT doesn't have this. Not even Donovan brought this. Close control in tight spaces that takes pressure off the whole team.
If you go back on this thread I said that Nagbe won't get a work permit. Then someone said Nagbe is much better than Agudelo and off went the argument.
Altidore Johannsson — Nagbe — Donovan Cameron — Bradley Fabian — Besler — Gonzalez — Chandler Guzan I'd love to see this.
Water is wet. 23 year old Landon Donovan was better than nearly anyone in our current pool, really. .
Dempsey at 23 is no comparison to Donovan neither but I like how he has turned out. I hope Nagbe is a late bloomer like Dempsey.