There are some points that have made me doubt and currently I have not decided which is the best goalkeeper from México.
Hugo Sánchez, Rafael Márquez, Cuauhtémoc Blanco, Luis de la Fuente and Antonio Carbajal/Jorge Campos/Oswaldo Sánchez/Memo Ochoa.
Certainly midfield maestro Gianni Rivera who directly outclassed Johan Cruyff in a European cup final also has a case for that claim Meazza reportedly had the best qualities of platini in playmaking,was a great and complete scorer and could dribble like or even better than baggio Meazza had all the qualities of a goat Candidate,I don’t think baggio had those All in all I’d say baggio is a definitive top 6 all time Italian player and best Italian attacker of the last 25 years Players I would definitely place in front of him Giuseppe Meazza Gianni Rivera gaetano scirea Franco baresi Paolo maldini After this it’s hard to say who was definitely better than him even though a case could be made Buffon or Dino zoff were as important to their teams at their respective peaks despite functioning in totally different roles to him I think it’s hard not to overrate baggio a tiny bit sometimes his talent although undoubtedly elite could not be effectively used for the benefit of the team(in terms of club trophies despite playing for the best teams in Italy)
Italy has a complicated case, but I guess the last 2 places would end up choosing from among Gianni Rivera, Roberto Baggio and Gianluigi Buffon. I think Thierry Henry could be the comfortable 4th member of the top 5. I also think Éric Cantona, Patrick Vieira and Franck Ribéry could have an opportunity depending on the point of view (Larbi Ben Barek?). Perhaps Telmo Zarra and Pirri should be mentioned as possibilities. Ruud Krol and Johan Neeskens would be strong candidates. Edwin van der Sar, Ronald Koeman, Edgar Davids, Rob Rensenbrink and Ruud van Nistelrooy could have a certain opportunity. I think Mário Coluna and Rui Costa would complete the top 5 with some comfort. I have some doubts about Fernando Peyroteo and Deco. I'd doubt the case of Duncan Edwards. Peter Shilton, Bryan Robson, Paul Scholes, Steven Gerrard and Frank Lampard would have an opportunity.
I advise you to read my thread. Maybe you learn something from it. As always, your leaning to 1970s footballers (for your ideal XI + bench too) is symptomatic for your in-built contempt.
Agree Italy is one of the hardest to give a satisfactory and reasonably decent answer for, but would think Meazza is probably a lock for one of the five places. Sadly he was probably not at his very best (influential) at the world cups and is from before television.
Here something on the special case of Neeskens (+ discussion below by annoyedbyneedoflogin and PDG1978): https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/du...cation-1979-1994.1978389/page-6#post-37030663 This video surfaced a week ago - maybe the best impression around He might well be in the pack of the iconic 1970s players, but is undoubtedly (100% sure) not rated enormously high in his own country. Not like top five, absolutely.
Scirea is the best Italian defender of all time and more importantly the most gifted He is also easily the 2nd greatest libero after Der kaiser who was superior in attacking, but could never match Scirea in defence and IMO they were equal in dribbling technique (at least from what I’ve seen even though a younger Beckenbauer looked more athletic/powerful on the run) Remember Scirea was a libero for most of his career only later on becoming CB. He excelled in both roles to the highest possible degree The most graceful player I have ever seen. He had the skill of a playmaker. He could do everything. There will never be another of his kind.” Dino Zoff To this day there has never emerged a player with a similar quality (and he was consistently great for the NT+club till his death which baggio was not) Talent+consistency+versatility >talent So Scirea >baggio and easily aswell Italian football did not start in 1990 ,however if it did I agree Roberto baggio certainly looked better when compared to totti,pirlo, Del piero,albertini,zola (And looked like a God to Vieri,inzaghi,vialli,Di natale,Mancini,ancelotti,Dino etc) Pre 1995 there were many Italian players of similar or even greater quality who were just unlucky not to have YouTube highlights Attackers/ trequartistas/Attacking midfielders like Vincent mazzola,Giuseppe meazza,Gianni Rivera and in defence Scirea,baresi,Facchetti,maldini were all the best in the world full stop or in their respective positions Roberto Baggio is the only post 90s Italian player who was the best in the world so he became overrated to younger fans (myself included) who couldn’t watch the aforementioned names live because they were either too young or not even born.
I rate both at similar level. About Scirea, excluding his top skills, he had a good WC 82, and two not good WCs. None impressive Euros. And just a couple of seasons in which he was the clearly No 1 defender. See Serie-A ranking thread. Also, DbO nominations. For this productivity, I don't see a clear case in favour of him vs Baggio.
Sorry mate, but your sistematic criticism of supposed inclinations still seems inconsistent for me (and I don't find it very coherent either). Anyway, please, tell me what thread do you mean.
Surely it's a very personal opinion and it's not that I believe otherwise by sure, but even considering him one of the best central defenders in history (top 10), it would be difficult for me to estimate him at the level where you estimate and I think most don't. I think he would be a safer inclusion in a top 10.
This one clearly? https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/du...ress-classification-1979-1994.1978389/page-15 Maybe this overview helps too: https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/historical-ranking-of-arjen-robben.2087098/#post-37322170 I've said it to you before (but received no answer back) but personally struggle to see what Neeskens has clearly over Davids. Davids was one of the most skillful defensive/central midfielders of his generation as well, played his part on the road to five European finals (+ nutmeg assist in the 1999 semi final that his team lost..), had two great national team tournaments and one very good one (in four participations) etc. Plus the undeniable impact he had at Barcelona (maybe 'inspiring'/helping Xavi further - source: the 'Barcelona legacy' book by Wilson). Davids was domestic champion six times and finished another six times in the top two, for four different club teams in three different countries. Maybe it is the 'Barca/Madrid bonus' (Neeskens pivotal figure in FCBs first UEFA recognized trophy), and to be fair Neeskens also gains points for fair play and his professional conduct, and he was more of a scoring threat. And he is a symbol of the 'total football' ethos, while also being appealing to the 'la furia' traditionalists. Which seasons do you mean? Strangely, dbscalcio is not particularly generous to him, but that might well be an error. http://www.dbscalcio.it/sn-schedaCa...omePlayer=Scirea&dataNascitaPlayer=22-05-1953 Either way, I tend to agree with you in the comparison to Baggio. It is also not likely that the top five will be filled with three defenders.
In a top 10 of Italian players or all time players? The top end of Most all time lists seem to favour attackers with the exception of a few German players like Beckenbauer a sweeper (or even Matthaus who as a box to box midfielder could be described as offensive in nature) Scirea could man mark like a Bergomi/nesta/cannavaro/Gentille (perhaps baresi was only better at this) He was more technically gifted than maldini or Cabrini Between him and Facchetti it’s a dead lock in all round skillset Facchetti was a LB and a slightly better version of prime maldini Scirea as libero is the only of his kind for Italian players(baresi came close but not quite there in terms of offensive skills but definitely a match defensively) His flair,his technique his defensive qualities, his wide array of skills is unmatched that a comparison with a complete offensive player like baggio is certainly possible Facchetti could even edge out Scirea on longevity but even so a comparison is difficult because of their different roles Btw there are many holes one could pick in the legacy of baggio He had one very good-great tournament in 94 in 90 he was just a kid with a few highlight reel moments but that’s it 1998 was imo his best in terms of all round influence and he had just come of his best post prime club season Scirea by my reckoning had two good showings 78+82 while 86 was just so-so average but not terrible or bad by any stretch of imagination (bad is Piqué2018 or David Luiz 2014) In any case Italy was in a transition phase so the performance or lack thereof reflects on the whole rather than just one player(and of course defenders are usually the first to bear the brunt of criticism or at least after GKs) With regards to baggio yes he was gifted(as a dribbler) Yes he was deadly from set pieces Besides these two aforementioned qualities I fail to see any other specialist qualities he had He was an inferior finisher to Del piero (the only reason it doesn’t seem so is because a substantial amount of his goals came from the spot Probably more than any player in the top 10 Serie A scorers of all time) I also hear a lot baggio was such a great playmaker, one of the best of the 90s This isn’t reflected in his assist tally Nor was it reflected by how his managers opted to utilise him(why would saachi use him as a FW if he was such a creative genius) For me in terms of role and playmaking baggio was like a cantona nothing more nothing less In fact I saw cantona as a player with more vision on the pitch and overall influence over a match What seperated baggio was his ability to create his own goalscoring opportunities through dribbling and imo was one of the best/reliable set piece takers in Serie A history along with maradona As a playmaker I just don’t see it and of course there is the problem of lack of titles He never even played in a European Cup final.many legends who had short peaks due to injury issues or even lifestyle choices still managed to leave behind a magnum opus George best had the European Cup in 68 Garrincha had the WC in 62 Ronaldinho has the 05/06 champions league Baggio had the uefa Cup but against whom (which great sides did he face there) It is was unfortunate that baggios career was often interrupted by his reoccurring knee injuries but what about Scirea his career was interrupted by death an irreversible process that surely prevented him from adding to his legacy
I'll try to clarify your point. First, thanks for the links. I'll need some time to read (before translating) everything, especially on the first thread. Anyway, I read some messages quickly and from your previous answer I've understood that you quoted me these discussions to refute a supposed idea or inclination of mine towards the 1970's Dutch players, am I right? I struggle to see how do you perceive that inclination, but other than that I'm not sure what content you're referring to that could correct some idea of mine. Second, why do you seem to point out that I mean a clear difference between Neeskens and Davids? Actually, that seems opposite to what I indicate in the previous answer, pointing to both with possibilities in a top 5 (from my point of view, of course). Rather, without an accurate position, it would indicate a narrow difference. I'm not sure if you noticed it and it's not proof of anything, but it just so happens that in the lists of top 23 I included Davids 4 times (one of them based on his inspiring almost half season with Barcelona in 2003-04), the same number of times that Tom Stevens included Neeskens.
Of your first team (first XI) five of the eleven names are from the 1970s. Of your 50 names there are 20 names from the 1970s; of your 23 squad there are nine. To me, that says (again) a lot but don't want to re-hash the old discussion on your lopsided evaluations. This helps, too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Football_Elo_Ratings You are (not for the first time) evading the question. You mentioned Krol and Neeskens as "strong candidates" for top five. Meanwhile, Davids was a paragraph lower and "could have a certain opportunity". Right? Hence my own suggestion.
I think your vehemence make you fall into logic errors. I'm not sure if you've taken it into account, but you just pointed out 45%, 40% and 39% of "preferance" each time as a clear propensity towards an era (without counting that the numbers are not exact either). If you have taken into account the numbers I think you exaggerate a lot and you're creating a position that does not make sense. Here you also answer me with some illogical. First, you've not asked a question (check the quotation of your message), so to say I evade one has no coherence. You have drawn up an opinion and I have responded promptly to it being me rather whom asked you the question. That's right. I supposed it's understood that the opportunity to which I refer it's about to be in that top 5 (didn't you understand that?). How do you end up translating this?: personally struggle to see what Neeskens has clearly over Davids. It's clear that you can understand that Krol and Neeskens could be first in my preferences, but that doesn't mean there had to be a clear difference with respect to the other 5 (I don't understand how you could interpret it that way). As in other threads I ask you to review your criticism and analyze if it's well done and it's not that you mix some personal feelings that don't have to do.
@carlito86 small point of correction, Scirea's playing career wasn't cut short by death, he died about a year after he had retired. About him vs other great Italian defenders, it's tough as Italy produced so many great ones. Scirea, Maldini, Bergomi and Baresi are probably definitely top four. Scirea was the best on the ball, and very elegant. On top of that very clean on the tackle. The argument can be made for him. As for him against Baggio, an argument can be made, but I feel you're selling Baggio very short there.
Thank you for the correction Scirea was a scout and coach for juventus in the year preceding his death(I should’ve known as his death was a direct consequence of a car collision on his way to watch a European match between juve and an obscure polish team and he did so in the role of an observer) School boy error but thanks nonetheless Btw I rank/rate baggio very highly you repped the overview I gave on the “resurrected” baggio thread so you should know this For me however i think it is important to draw a distinction between what baggio could’ve been without injury issues and what he actually was Scirea had a full career played at the highest level Baggio did not. Baggio really only had one good season with Milan (his first)I believe he recorded his highest ever assist tally then and played his part in the scudetto but he wasn’t imo better than savecivic and of course 95/96 was all about George Weah (and his goal vs Verona that got replayed a million times.i remember watching it on channel 4 ,an English terrestrial channel as a kid and it’s kind of one of the first football moments I remember Despite a few good CL matches particularly against Real Madrid his spell at inter was a disaster His first season for Brescia was good but not exactly top 10 player in the world material I mean we would have to do some serious revisionism to say baggio in 97/98 was at anything more than a “good level”(comparable to let’s say Raul In schalke in 10/11) Really what were left with is World Cup 1994 and what preceded it. On an individual level he was outstanding but then there is the issue of trophies or lack thereof Scirea played just under 10 years at the highest level 77-85 That defence of zoff between the sticks,Cabrini,gentille the enforcer and Scirea as the ball playing libero is one of the the greatest back lines in Serie A history I know in 76/77 juventus conceded only 20 goals on their way to the scudetto.that is outstanding and probably the best defensive record after Milan 87/88 Scirea could actually play like really play despite being a defensive player in nature he was technically World class(in dribbling and ball distribution) That is something we cannot say about any player from this era who knows how to defend (Dani Alves of course is technical but he was practically a winger for Barcelona even if his starting position was RB-and he was an average defender at best) I know certain Brazilians will claim he shut Prime CR7 down but I find that hard to believe considering ronaldo scored 18 goals against his defence or at least 14 when he was a Barcelona player Ashley Cole shut down CR7(0 goals against Chelsea in the premier league) Dani Alves did not
I had a look at the most voted ESM players (min 10 votes). Voter size wasn't always constant but just for informative purposes (can/will do the same for the Belgians later, but have to think about a better threshold than 10 for them). 136 - Robben 79 - Van Persie 77 - Van der Sar 69 - Van Nistelrooij 56 - Seedorf 55 - Stam 51 - Sneijder 46 - Makaay 44 - Frank de Boer 39 - Davids 30 - Van der Vaart 26 - Kluivert 26 - Van Bommel 21 - Reiziger 19 - Blind 18 - Bergkamp 18 - Cocu 18 - Dost 18 - Huntelaar 16 - Overmars 16 - Van Bronckhorst 15 - Van Hooijdonk 13 - Hesp (uncapped!) 12 - Ronald de Boer 10 - Westerveld I hope I haven't overlooked one. Van Dijk is at twenty-something now (28?). The odd one out is Bergkamp but when he gets compared to others of his generation (Zola, Baggio) he has more votes than them (Baggio 11 post-1995). He still got votes when he was 34 years old and was for sure statistically very important for his team. As mentioned a few times before, Seedorf is a guarantee for conflicting opinions but it speaks for him he even got votes (& included) when playing for Sampdoria or Internazionale (Inter almost won the title in 2002, they lost the last round, in which he was unable to play - he had scored 2 non-pk goals against Juventus just before). He has somehow more votes as Modric in his career, mad.
Yeah, the ESM-numbers aren't really that good for comparison between different eras. Sometime soon I'll have to check the seasons when the number of voters increased. Going by memory, I'd say around 2004 and 2010 was when the numbers took big leaps forward. A better way of comparison might be to see how high a player ranked in his position in his prime. For example, between 95-00 Bergkamp is in position 21 among forwards. Davids and Seedorf are 7th and 9th for midfielders, respectively. Pretty darn impressive from Davids, considering his position. Though it looks to me like in the 90s the ESM-11s were still reasonable. Later on they turned ridiculous.
He remains imho an oddity that way. His countrymen Overmars and Kluivert are then ahead and also club mate Anelka. It also deviates from the BdO and the rec.sport.soccer vote. One of the reasons might be an understandable tendency to strikers and/or goalscorers (at that time they voted two forwards, not three). Raul Gonzalez had pretty much his 'weakest year' in the vote when he was not playing as the goalscorer/striker, despite Real Madrid winning the CL in 1997-98. Take away the strikers and DB10 is around 4th/5th. There are more that feel strange, like Drogba his very, very high scores. Also intriguing to see how Rpnaldinho gradually became more 'dominant' in the votes, reaching the apex in 2005-06 (he actually wasn't so productive in 2004-05...).