Curious About Your Thoughts and Opinions on Article

Discussion in 'Youth & HS Soccer' started by MonagHusker, Dec 4, 2017.

  1. mwulf67

    mwulf67 Member+

    Sep 24, 2014
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Do you have a better example that doesn’t take less then minute to figure out?

    I swear, college soccer coaches must be a) super lazy or b) super dumb, or c) a super combo of both….

    All these same issues - complex, wide range of quality, age differences, class levels, etc., all exist for other HS sports as well…all these college coaches in this other sports must be freakin’ geniuses to figure it all out….
     
  2. mwulf67

    mwulf67 Member+

    Sep 24, 2014
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Doesn’t hurt downstream in other sports…

    Very talented kids in other sports from Small Town Nowhere end up in college and the pros all the time…

    Basketball, with their 15-17 man roster, is far worse with regard to interest being greater then roster spots…
     
  3. mwulf67

    mwulf67 Member+

    Sep 24, 2014
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    There is no question that each sport has their own different and unique challenges…and soccer has or would have there’s as well…

    I guess the question comes down would those challenges be insurmountable for soccer….clearly I don’t believe so…
     
  4. CoachP365

    CoachP365 Member+

    Money Grab FC
    Apr 26, 2012
    The stakes of college soccer are such that they don't need to go check out HS looking for the outlier. They can find plenty of athletic ball launcher/ball winners in the club soccer pool, win their conference and lose to one of the D1 powers that get the creme of the ECNL/USSDA crop and a smattering of foreign talent.

    Right now, the stakes of US pro soccer are the same. In addition to the pool of college players, they can find any number of ball launcher/ball winner/lose repeated 1v3 take on players throughout the CONs cacaf and mebol, not to mention the occasional European.
     
  5. The Stig

    The Stig Member

    Jun 28, 2016
    Those are different sports with very different development timelines. High School Boot ball only puts the big and fast kids on display and lacks any form of disciplined possession. We already know how that story ends when we just put a big fast team together.
     
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  6. bustos21

    bustos21 Member

    Aug 13, 2004
    NJ
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    I still keep in touch with my division 1 soccer coach and I graduated in 2002. I met him through ODP program in the 90s and that's how I got in the University to play.

    So he tells me he still goes to HS games from time to time to recruit. It is very difficult for him to attend these games because the seasons are on at the same time of year. He also has relationships with people in other countries and basically goes by the scout's word if they are good or not (Risky) but many of the players are pretty good. Some of the relationships (not all) he has internationally are ex players. During the off season he is off watching club and academy games for sure. Some out of state or in state kids usually send there soccer resumes to him. He definitively does a lot of traveling for recruiting throughout the US and internationally.
    New Jersey has so many high schools teams and a rich soccer culture. So many players have come from NJ (Meola, Ramos, Harkes, Reyna, etc.) That is why High School games will still be viewed by college coaches around here. St. Benedict's Prep, Kearny High are powerhouse soccer schools
     
  7. CornfieldSoccer

    Aug 22, 2013
    I'm curious about this myself.

    My older son is a runner (XC in the fall here, track in the spring), and when the soccer program made cuts at the beginning of the fall this year, a couple of those kids made their way to cross country. As far as I know, none were current club players and rec soccer for high-schoolers here is non-existent.

    Maybe they're just done? Pick it up again in college intramurals? No idea.
     
  8. The Stig

    The Stig Member

    Jun 28, 2016
    Because in most cases they can see the same kid play at a showcase against better kids, and while they are there, they can see ten other players on their list in the same weekend just fields apart. The context of the quality of the overall tournament also allows for a better gauge of the scouted players actual talent versus trying to contextualize it based on the very wide variance of HS soccer.

    To pull a page from your own past logic on another topic, there is no reason to upend a system that works just to satisfy your social experiment? Why should my kid have to be viewed or held back on a lower team for a scouting opportunity when the best place for my kid to shine is surrounded by the best available talent.
     
  9. sam_gordon

    sam_gordon Member+

    Feb 27, 2017
    Part of the problem is the breakdown on how many HS & how many club teams there are in an area. In the town where I work (and DS plays club ball), there are five public HS's and two(?) private. I think there are three clubs in the county. DS is on the top team in the city. But the kids on the club team all go to different HS's. In fact, half of his club team are from all of the surrounding counties, so they of course go to their own HS.
     
  10. MonagHusker

    MonagHusker Member

    Liverpool FC
    United States
    Feb 25, 2016
    Omaha, Nebraska
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Thanks for sharing! I like that there is a outlet and like that the popularity of the college game appears to exceed that of it's English counterpart (I daresay it does for the U23 games I general). I would like to see more homegrown talent without sounding like a USA! USA! Love it or leave it type;)
     
  11. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think he's got a point. Even if you don't think soccer is a bit different than other major team sports, remember that basketball:

    1) only features 5 players in play at a time, not 11; and
    2) is a very high-scoring sport, not a low-scoring defensive sport like soccer.

    For those two reasons alone, I think it's reasonable to think that an outstanding player on a bad team could still stand out.
     
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  12. MonagHusker

    MonagHusker Member

    Liverpool FC
    United States
    Feb 25, 2016
    Omaha, Nebraska
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    One thing that dawned on me as I was reading and responding, and I could be off, are we really discussing men's soccer? The women's side is doing just fine at an international level and has for years. Considering they seem to have access to the same resources as the men, what are the key differences? I wondered if the talent pool was a factor, but I tend to think even in the current state of the men's game, there is enough to work with. Is the women's international game lagging behind, such that at some point we might be Das Reboot'ed out of the top spots? Does it have more of a grassroots appeal?

    Or is the women's game as suspect at the HS and Collegiate level? Fraught with the same issues as the men?
     
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  13. In the article he refers to the European academies, but these are in the Netherlands the top of the selection pyramid. Before you get there it has to be established you're a talent and that is done for most of them in the amateur clubs that cost, most certainly compared to USA pay to play clubs, very little. So the difference is that kids arenot selected at capability, but the kids go to play soccer for fun. From those the amateur clubs select the best and field them in teams made up of comparable talented kids. The best from there get noticed by pro clubs academies, in fact many of the amateur clubs have an affiliation with one of the pro clubs to inform them of a talent, and then the selection to the top academies gets done.
    So the main difference I spot with the article with the Dutch situation is that at the start there is no selection at all, so a premature overlooking of a talent cannot happen. He's been in England, but not in the Netherlands. So his comparing to Europe isnot quite accurate, at least not when it comes to the Dutch situation.
     
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  14. The Stig

    The Stig Member

    Jun 28, 2016
    First, one would hope that a HS team was primarily made up of club players, but then again so is Super Y. Throw some kids together for two months from various clubs and see how it goes. Usually it is poor soccer.

    With HS, throw club kids from different clubs, different levels of teams AND up to 4 years apart in age and experience and what do you get? CRAPPY, play to win bootball soccer. Colleges don't recruit school pride, colleges don't recruit teams. They recruit players and if they cant watch a player play with and against best possible players available to them, within a actual system and style of play what is to be learned?

    The only thing a college coach could really scout at a HS game is workrate.
    The women’s game has gotten by on pure athleticism and a general lack of interest internationally in the women’s game.

    That has changed in the last decade as soccer loving countries have taken more of an interest in the women’s game and they are applying the methods that have worked on the men’s side.

    So yes the player pool was a factor but it was the lack of a international player pool that contributed to some of our women’s success.
     
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  15. mwulf67

    mwulf67 Member+

    Sep 24, 2014
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    As I said earlier, I know I am barking into the wind…

    I understand no one or very few will agree with me…and those that don’t, I am not going to hammer or attack…

    I realize that what I am suggesting would require a paradigm shift in how things are currently; I further realize the motivation for such a shift is weak to non-existent…

    People either a) don’t care, b) don’t see the need, or c) don’t want to harm their own self-interests…

    Our current system only does one thing really well…and that’s crank out a ton of college talent, never heard of before or after again…I just think we can crank out that some ton of talent in a way that actually has a chance of generating real grassroots interest in this sport…
     
  16. The Euro 2017 campaign for the Orange Lionesses I didnot expect much from, as they were crap 2 years ago. But for the tournement inside our borders they put in real efforts, taking a female coach from one of the best pro academies in the land, and much to my surprise they were technically and tactically superior to the opponents, resulting in an unbeaten title.
    So in a way your right.
     
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  17. mwulf67

    mwulf67 Member+

    Sep 24, 2014
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    First, not always….I’ve seen clubs teams that play crap kickball and HS teams that play beautiful possession soccer…painting with such a board brush isn’t helpful…

    Second, why is it all of sudden a negative to have kids “playing up” in HS, when its generally viewed as a positive in club ball? Besides, having freshmen, JV and Varsity squads could certainly moderate those concerns...

    And lastly and most importantly, I don’t think anyone is saying HS soccer can work as currently constructed…things would have to change for it to work….like a longer season, with perhaps less games…
     
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  18. mwulf67

    mwulf67 Member+

    Sep 24, 2014
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Like I said, I will concede that perhaps basketball, with its low player count and high scoring in general, is easier to scout than any other sport in the world…

    But that doesn’t mean that soccer is “unscoutable” unless its best players are gift warped and lay at the feet of college coaches (aka showcases)…but even IF HS soccer did become the norm/path, that doesn’t mean showcases couldn’t continue to happen in the off season…and I certainly don’t mean to suggest they couldn’t co-exist….
     
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  19. mwulf67

    mwulf67 Member+

    Sep 24, 2014
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    7 goals, 6 assists in 966 minutes…I believe those are respectable individual numbers…it’s hard to argue the team outcome was his fault….and if “scouting” the team during any of those games, I am not sure how you wouldn’t have noticed him….
     
  20. sam_gordon

    sam_gordon Member+

    Feb 27, 2017
    You keep saying things no one else has said. I never said soccer players were unscoutable. I never said they play like shit. All I said was a standout player in basketball can still standout on a bad team, more so than a standout player on a bad team in soccer. You seemed to take offense at that for some reason I don't understand.
     
  21. PatK

    PatK Member

    Jul 27, 1999
    Hillsborough, NC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This has been a fascinating thread. I had to take awhile read the whole six pages. I want to thank everyone involved for their insights and genuine disagreements without being unpleasant.

    A couple of points from the point of a view as long time coach (almost 20 years at the high school level) of three sports lacrosse, ice-hockey and soccer, a participant of these and fan them and more.

    The conundrum we have to deal with is that soccer in the US has two distinct problems:
    1) How do we develop elite level players so we can compete internationally and create a viable professional base?
    2) How do we grow a grassroots appreciation of soccer as a sport that is comparable to the other mainstream sports from a community and spectator standpoint?

    Some folks have argued that 1) will lead to 2), but I have my doubts. I view it as more of a necessary, but not sufficient condition. In fact I think that without the grassroots appreciation of the game, you are not going to maximize the athlete development because you are going to limit the athlete pool.

    Mwulf has made good points that soccer is not that different from any other sport that coaches can identify talented players wherever they are. I just want to second that from an experienced coaches point of view. It might be less of an individual's game than basketball and it might have fewer metrics than baseball; but I'll state flat out that an experienced coach or scout can see talented/savvy players at any level. That is as true in soccer as it is in ice-hockey or lacrosse for certain (and I'd say any sport).

    However what we do not have is a soccer culture that embraces the american sports model and that IMO has led to a sports culture here that has not fully embraced soccer.

    All the discussion of the elite player and making sure they are given full training and pathways to professional careers usually invokes the European model - as vague as that is. What's not discussed most of the time is the extremely high percentage of players who are cast aside as the funnel narrows. The numbers in Europe of players entering club academies and progressing to professional careers are really not that different than that of middle school/high school athletes here making D1 and ultimately professional careers in baseball, basketball or gridiron. (<1%)

    I interpret that as just the nature of elite athletes in general and that soccer as a sport isn't special in that regard

    What's different is how those athletes who leave the game during this process react. In Europe the soccer cutlure is so mature that these players remain connected to the game as fans and in many cases amatuer players. I am not so parochial as to say that soccer is all there is, but it is the dominant sport in much of europe.

    That's not the case here. In fact, I have seen way too many examples of students who when they have not made the club level simply walk away from the game. Oftentimes they find another sport is willing to keep the door open to late-bloomers, sometimes just away from sports in general. But in either case it's usually away from soccer. It's these players, however, who should be forming the base of support for soccer as spectator sport. You can't fill stadiums with just the ODP or DA populations.

    So the real question in my mind is how do we keep the vast majority of players playing in some form through their teens & twenties, and therefore give them the connection to the game that makes them and their community want to go watch soccer. In most sports here that is through the connection to HS athletics. HS soccer may be spottier than club soccer, but there is still some excellent play there. There are excellent coaches who are focused on developing players, and it is NOT, as often characterized, only about winning. That's an insult to the many people involved who do have the students and athletes and their development as young men and women as their priority and its an insult to players who often spend more time practicing during the HS season 4 to 5x/week than during most club seasons.

    What HS soccer really allows is the connection to the community and the potential growth of the fan culture. I don't think we'll ever have the athletic club culture of europe. We're too long established in the interscholastic model, so it is crucial that soccer embrace this, not as the pathway to elite player development, but as the way to grow the soccer culture and to put it better, grow soccer into the culture.
     
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  22. mwulf67

    mwulf67 Member+

    Sep 24, 2014
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    I am not offended… …this whole tangent started because someone, not you, actually did seem to make the claim/comment that soccer player are basically “unscoutable” unless everything was perfect or quality…teammates, competition, ref, field conditions, etc… I really don’t care about more so, only that they can be…
     
  23. MonagHusker

    MonagHusker Member

    Liverpool FC
    United States
    Feb 25, 2016
    Omaha, Nebraska
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Great post! I think bigredfutbol has mentioned something similar about keeping kid/young adults as engaged as possible for as long as possible. It builds passion and knowledge; those are likely the future coaches and administrators of future leagues. Most of my kids' coaches are parents with limited soccer experience prior to their own children playing the game. Some have been good coaches, but I do wonder what a generation of kids that played for most of their youth coaching a team would be like.
     
  24. PatK

    PatK Member

    Jul 27, 1999
    Hillsborough, NC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I do want to point out that soccer is not alone in this challenge. Any sport trying to grow their population and fan interest is facing the same challenge of club vs HS and elite development vs participation and fan development. I'd actually say that it is challenge facing all sports. Baseball and football, for example, are seeing falling numbers of participants at the high school levels for different reasons. However, I can't help but think that this is not a good trend for the eventual connection of communities and fans to the sports at the professional levels. These trends are long-term, generational changes and we may not see the consequences for 30 years.
     
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  25. italiancbr

    italiancbr Member

    Apr 15, 2007
    I see the pay to play argument as a scapegoat regarding the issues affecting development. I think it's usually brought up by people that think that the best athletes don't go into soccer or that not enough urban kids are playing the sport. Here are several points that I've come up with as to why pay to play isn't as big of a concern as some people believe:
    1) There are several ways that a team will work with a player. If you're good enough, you can even play for free. Otherwise there are financial aid packages, fundraisers, parents can volunteer, businesses or individuals can sponsor a player, etc.
    2) The idea that professional players come from poor backgrounds is a myth, even in basketball. There are better ways to expand the quantity and quality of players and the environment of those from poor neighborhoods is much more of an obstacle to athletic success than pay to play.
    3) Going back to the idea that a kid and his parents see sports as a way to prosperity, why would they choose soccer over basketball, football, or even baseball? The money is in those sports, not in soccer. Pay to play isn't keeping them from choosing and focusing on soccer, the lack of fame and riches in MLS is.
    4) Again, if a kid has good size, i.e. is tall, fast, and muscular, why would he choose soccer over American sports where size can be exploited as an advantage? Soccer is probably the sport that has the highest correlation of time spent training to skill level, and it's the only team sport I can think of that a 5'6" player can be the best in the world. That's why that best athlete argument doesn't hold up. The best American soccer athletes are probably the smallest youth football and basketball kids with a chip on their shoulder wishing they could excel at something but hold onto those sports as a way of fitting in and trying to be popular. And why would an American athlete choose a sport where the competition is from the rest of the world vs an American sport?
    5) Soccer players aren't the most popular kids in school. Other athletes make fun of them. Soccer still isn't followed much on TV. And the biggest reward for the cream of the crop is that they can one day go to a foreign country where they don't speak the language and leave family and friends behind. Even without pay to play, what about any of that is appealing or would change?

    The bigger problem I see is not with the belief that pay to play limits opportunities, but rather that the current model greatly reduces access and quality to a huge swath of the population. In the U12 and U13/U14 U.S. Soccer Development maps, I counted at least half the states as not being represented, and for those states that do have academies, they are all clustered around dense urban centers with the remainder of the state, such as west Texas, not being included. While every state has soccer clubs, those that aren't part of this system are obviously at a big disadvantage in terms of coaching quality, visibility, access to competition, etc. This is especially critical in soccer where the development system is not rooted in the high school and college systems like American sports.
     
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