Cunningham is NOT in the mix!

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by Bruce S, Oct 13, 2002.

  1. LoveFifa

    LoveFifa New Member

    Apr 23, 2001
    Detroit, Michigan
    Point conceded. But still, he does play with a little swagger right now. Admitted, he's earned it. But I am one of the "Shut up and play" people. I don't like taunting. Leave that ************ for the fans to do.
     
  2. Bruce S

    Bruce S Member+

    Sep 10, 1999
    Adin is a great keeper, but the beard makes him look like he stepped out of Deliverance.
    I have seen him play every single match this year and he is not particularly a showboat. I have actually never even heard anyone say that about him before.
     
  3. Noah Dahl

    Noah Dahl New Member

    Nov 1, 2001
    Pottersville
    Yeah, taunting is just classless and immature.

    Like Adin Brown!
     
  4. LoveFifa

    LoveFifa New Member

    Apr 23, 2001
    Detroit, Michigan
    Yeah, I'm surprised there isn't some kind of regulation that says you have to be clean shaven to play there.

    With that being said, who's up for USWNT match, against, say Brazil, In the nude at the Big Razor?

    Because, frankly, this thread is overdone.
     
  5. Bruce S

    Bruce S Member+

    Sep 10, 1999
    but you just keep right on posting!
     
  6. Noah Dahl

    Noah Dahl New Member

    Nov 1, 2001
    Pottersville
    Wait, you did t.. oo.
     
  7. Bruce S

    Bruce S Member+

    Sep 10, 1999
    I started it, so......
     
  8. CrewToon

    CrewToon Member

    Jun 13, 1999
    Greenbrier Farm
    What does Adin Brown's resemblence to a 'neck have have to do with little Jeff Cunningham?
     
  9. johnh00

    johnh00 Member

    Apr 25, 2001
    CT, USA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Weren't we talking about how JC would look with a beard?
     
  10. johnh00

    johnh00 Member

    Apr 25, 2001
    CT, USA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You're right, he did do the finger wag, but I'm pretty sure it says in the MLS rulebook that it's not taunting if you're doing it to Diallo.

    ;)
     
  11. Noah Dahl

    Noah Dahl New Member

    Nov 1, 2001
    Pottersville
    Okay, Brian McBride: What are you going to get?
    (A) The lion-hearted fighter with a surprisingly clever touch and the will or (B) the gangly, broken down pick-up truck who can't trap a ball or hit an open goal with a header?

    Again I think you're tailoring your definitions to fit McBride and preclude Jeff. I notice your definition, for example, now includes "coachable."

    Depending on the coach, McBride's weaknesses could look debilitating. He was dependably and consistently a long shot to score a goal against a strong opponent - before the World Cup.

    But Bruce preferred to bank on the minimal returns of McBride (+ the Arena system) rather than the unpredictable genius of Mathis, for example.

    Fair enough - the returns this summer were anything but minimal. This suggests to me that McBride was a better fit for the Arena system. It doesn't prove Brian McBride is an international quality player and Jeff Cunningham is not, as you suggest.
     
  12. Noah Dahl

    Noah Dahl New Member

    Nov 1, 2001
    Pottersville
    Okay, Brian McBride: What are you going to get?
    (A) The lion-hearted fighter with a surprisingly clever touch who comes through for the heroic goal or (B) the gangly, broken down truck who can't trap a ball or hit an open goal with a header?

    Again I think you're tailoring your definitions to fit McBride and preclude Jeff. I notice your definition, for example, now includes "coachable."

    Depending on the coach, McBride's weaknesses could look debilitating. He was dependably and consistently a long shot to score a goal against a strong opponent - before the World Cup.

    But Bruce preferred to bank on the minimal returns of McBride (+ the Arena system) rather than the unpredictable genius of Mathis, for example.

    Fair enough - the returns this summer were anything but minimal. This suggests to me that McBride was a better fit for the Arena system. It doesn't prove Brian McBride is an international quality player and Jeff Cunningham is not, as you suggest.
     
  13. Karl K

    Karl K Member

    Oct 25, 1999
    Suburban Chicago
    An outstanding World Cup peformance DOESN'T prove it?

    In that case, your criteria is beyone comprehension.
     
  14. Noah Dahl

    Noah Dahl New Member

    Nov 1, 2001
    Pottersville
    You're playing dumb.

    All it proves is that McBride worked out well for a system which required a big, running-around target kinda guy. And visa versa: the system worked well for McBride.

    It doesn't prove anything, either way, about Cunningham's quality.
     
  15. Martin Fischer

    Martin Fischer Member+

    Feb 23, 1999
    Kampala. Uganda
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is a myth. Arena's "system" does not require a target player, though the use of a target player has its advantages -- and disadvantages. When McBride was not available, Arena used a variety of different combinations up top, some of them using a kind of target man, others not.

    Arena determined that McBride in the form he was in at the World Cup would be more productive than either Wolff or Mathis -- on his form at that point in time -- on most occasions because Arena's judgment was that McBride would add more than the others, strengths, minuses and meshing with his teammates considered. You can't prove that Arena was correct, but his results generally support his judgment.
     
  16. Karl K

    Karl K Member

    Oct 25, 1999
    Suburban Chicago
    On McBride, Martin Fischer's post says what needs to be said.

    Meanwhile, Cunningham's "quality" is evident through observation.

    --He's inconsistent -- wildly so. Don't rely on my observations; read what all the crew fans have been saying about him on this and other threads.

    --He has a difficult time combining with teammates. Don't rely on my observations; read what all the crew fans have been saying about him on this and other threads.

    --He does not hold the ball well. Don't rely on my observations; read what all the crew fans have been saying about him on this and other threads.

    Then there's his poor defense, too-often ineffective off the ball runs (when he DOES do that), inability to use his speed to do effective crossing and corner creation, and other key aspects of forward play that are lacking, or otherwise inconsistently applied.

    Recognizing the characteristics of his play as NOT suitable for the USMNT is like determining whether a visual image is pornographic, as opposed to artistic: namely, you know it when you see it.

    And with JC, THAT's what you see.
     
  17. Noah Dahl

    Noah Dahl New Member

    Nov 1, 2001
    Pottersville
    I don't know whether there's any "myth" about it, but I can see truth to Martin's point.

    Would you also recognize that when Bruce had his full complement, his ideal system included a target man? My guess is this is so because he wanted to play in contrast to teams like Portugal and not because he had to come up with a strategy which leveraged McBride's sublime abilities.

    Now, I fully concede that at 3-2 it was a happy marriage for all of us.

    As for Cunningham, you clearly defer to those Crew supporters observations which support your point. They carry significant weight in my assessment as well. But I've seen a lot of Jeff Cunningham myself and can't deny my own observation. He shows qualities which seem unique to the greater national team player pool. No brilliant player is always brilliant. I'd love for the national team coach to be able to get that game out of Cunnigham on a more consistent basis.

    As for "knowing quality when you see it" : I tend to see it and know it and stick up for it before the average poster here. Of course it gets silly when hundreds of voices are clamoring for their own flavor of the month to get a call-up. But silly's better, for this forum, than conservative and conformist.

    What, after all, were you saying about Porno Mastroenni last year? That he couldn't hold a candle to Armas.
     
  18. LoveFifa

    LoveFifa New Member

    Apr 23, 2001
    Detroit, Michigan
    Noah Dahl,

    Here's a stick. Now go beat that dead horse over there.
     
  19. Noah Dahl

    Noah Dahl New Member

    Nov 1, 2001
    Pottersville
    dead horse

    Well that would be redundant - I'm already working on this one here.


    But what's your point? Dead is dead, and if there were to be a movie about BigSoccer it would have to be titled "Dead Horse Society"
     
  20. Karl K

    Karl K Member

    Oct 25, 1999
    Suburban Chicago
    I dunno -- sillyness is just, well, silly. I think we should take the national team seriously, and our discussions should be, and least on N&A, serious.

    JC's got talent, and athletic ability, but I believe that those qualities are NOT enough. Some players are, as you suggest, coachable into consistency; some, however, are decidedly not. I don't know whether Jeff could be, but I have my doubts.

    Meanwhile, I don't think a national team coach, at the senior men's team level, should be in the development business. You should instead be in the communication business -- "Guys, do this stuff THIS way." The player should come in READY to play the way they need to play, and when told to play, they should understand and execute immediately. If they don't, get somebody else; time is too precious.

    Finally, I don't think I ever said Pablo didn't "hold a candle" to Armas, or even words to that effect. If I recall correctly, I thought that while more skillful on the ball and faster than Armas, he didn't read the game as well, was positionally weaker, and less strong on the tackle. To me, it was more an issue of tradeoffs, rather than the fact that ONE player -- who I thought was a better option -- was in fact so MUCH better than the OTHER player.

    But that's ancient history, so let's not rehash it, OK??
     
  21. Red Card

    Red Card Member+

    Mar 3, 1999
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Karl, don't you now think that Mastroeni is a level better than Armas ever was?
     
  22. Karl K

    Karl K Member

    Oct 25, 1999
    Suburban Chicago
    I don't know whether we want to get into this argument.

    I haven't seen the Rapids at all this year, so I really can't say now.

    Of course, he did a fine job in J/K; I think Armas would have done just as well overall -- probably in some respects better, in others perhaps less well, though the degree of difference on the downside I think would have been slight.

    Over on the Fire board, as the injury riddled team staggered toward its inevitable fate, there was one thing that was VERY clear to a lot of observant posters: the players that were missed the most were Wolff and Armas. By his absence, Chris value was brought into high relief.

    It's clear, given their respective ages, that Pablo has a longer national team career ahead of him than Chris, and that given Chris' age now he will likely be too old for '06 to be a 90 minute player. Perhaps a role player, a la Cobi. But that kind of future is very hard to predict.

    Meanwhile, I will say this to the anti-Armas crowd. Given Chris' determination, discipline, dedication, and smarts to get to the position he was in LAST time, don't be so quick to bury him THIS time, especially in qualifying early on.
     
  23. lasoccervegas2002

    Jul 7, 2002
    this planet
    Cunningham ( and Mathis ), will be very good players but need some more years to develope, need more practices, more playing time.
     
  24. LoveFifa

    LoveFifa New Member

    Apr 23, 2001
    Detroit, Michigan
    They're heading into their late twenties. There really isn't much more time for them to develop.
     
  25. Martin Fischer

    Martin Fischer Member+

    Feb 23, 1999
    Kampala. Uganda
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't know for sure as I have never discussed the issue with Arena, but my guess is NO. The reason I say this is that Arena used a very different system in DC with a midfield maestro, a slashing/creating forward and a poacher. When Lassiter was the poacher, there was absolutely no target man type attack as Lassiter had one rock foot and another stone foot. Arce was a little better at holding the ball, but he didn't do it that well and with Etcheverry in his prime, there was not a great need for this type of play.

    I view Arena as a coach who makes positional decisions based on talent, not vice versa, with the only strategic absolute being a preference for a defensive system that is more zonal than man-to-man.

    I think the other major difference between our views is that I think McBride has a lot of subtle talent with his feet that many others don't see.
     

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