CSL or MLS

Discussion in 'Canada' started by RedandWhite, Aug 8, 2005.

  1. The reason I'm awake right now is because I'm not currently in the eastern time zone. My career takes me to a lot of different parts of the world and I actually quite enjoy travelling. A Canadian league along the lines of the original 8 team CSL with a 28 game schedule would involve several long expensive east-west trips by air, which raises the break even level crowd to stay afloat significantly. PDL on the other hand, based on having the smaller Canadian cities in regional conferences with near-by teams from the other side of the US-Canada border, would primarily be about long bus trips which are much more affordable making budgets more sustainable over the long haul. That's basically why the W League survives, while WUSA did not.
     
  2. DoyleG

    DoyleG Member+

    CanPL
    Canada
    Jan 11, 2002
    YEG-->YYJ-->YWG-->YYB
    Club:
    FC Edmonton
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Stick to the PDL? Stupidist comment around.

    I tore your travel myth to bits and yet you keep flogging the dead horse.

    Times have changed. Canadians will support a CSL better than a single MLS team.

    Just give it up already.
     
  3. How so? The Calgary Storm could have been the Des Moines Menace type franchise of the PDL's Northwest division:-

    http://menacesoccer.com/gamestats/scores/

    financically viable and sustainable, attracting crowds of 2000 or so because people love to watch a winner (like they were in their one season of PDL) but they got into the air travel to away games stuff in USL-D1 instead and went broke because only a few hundred soccer diehards would show up to watch a struggling team playing at that level with a lopsided losing record. Much the same scenario as what happened with the Calgary Kickers in the CSL. One good initial year in the first short 20 game schedule season in 1987 then when they tried to compete consistently with the Vancouver 86ers within a longer more truly national league schedule involving more east-west air travel they quickly went broke followed by one last season with a different name under a second ownership group (Strikers rather than Mustangs) as the crowds slowly evaporated due to a losing record. Nothing's really changed Doyle.

    http://www.rsssf.com/usadave/csl.html

    Will you be supporting the new Edmonton team next summer (if it happens) or is PDL beneath you?

    http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Soccer/Canada/2005/04/22/1008329.html

    "A PDL team would be the right way to restart things. I see no reason at all why the team couldn't break even its first year (on approximately a $75,000 budget).
     
  4. Joe MacCarthy

    Joe MacCarthy New Member

    Dec 4, 2004
    Smartest thing I've read in umm... 16 pages. You guys brought the fight over from here
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=242490
    and probably should go back there. I should have kept it closed 8 pages ago.

    It's been everywhere including Americans surrepticiously (sp?) wanting to keep Toronto out of MLS. Does anybody have a clue what the topic of this thread is? You might want to check the first post again.

    Or is the idea here to get the last word?

    Cue playground insults...
     
  5. I'd like clarification as to whether or not Joe MacCarthey is in fact a moderator on this subforum or whether this last message was just his two cents worth as a bigsoccer poster? From what I can see the moderators that are listed at this point in time for this subforum are DoyleG and Blizzard and they have both actively participated in this thread since Joe MacCarthey's last attempt to get this thread closed down. Don't like then don't read is a very simple rule of thumb where contentious threads on messageboards are concerned IMO.
     
  6. TopDogg

    TopDogg Member

    Jan 31, 2000
    Toronto
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    What the hell?

    Companies may not pay per diems, but leagues most certainly do (even the NBA and NHL still do), and since this whole thread is about leagues, why would you even bother bringing up what companies are doing?
     
  7. TopDogg

    TopDogg Member

    Jan 31, 2000
    Toronto
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    You did?

    I must have missed that. All I read was a post about a travel schedule where professional athletes will be asked to spoon with each other on road trips because they have to travel 3 to a room.
     
  8. Joe MacCarthy

    Joe MacCarthy New Member

    Dec 4, 2004
    FYI, I am not a moderator (I asked to step down) and there wasn't an attempt to close the thread previously. I closed it, thought about it and reopened it because I thought you could have an attention span long enough to keep it on topic. I was wrong. I know there were problems with you guys at the MLS Expansion forum with the childish bickering.

    Yes, I don't have to read your condescending, long winded postings but seeing as they are the first thread in the forum I have a right to my opinion as well. You've met an equally pretentious foe for the last word in Liverpool. Just my two cents, your cue to get the last word in.
     
  9. Couldn't care less what you think to be honest. As stated don't like then don't read. Simple.
     
  10. Grah

    Grah Member

    Sep 4, 2003
    How long do you call a short trip Edmonton to Toronto is Several days just one way. Edmonton to Calgary is 2 hours but you will still have to feed the players twice before & after the game for proper nutrition
     
  11. Liverpool_SC

    Liverpool_SC Member

    Jun 28, 2002
    Upstate, SC
    What the heck?!?! I quit posting in this thread and "said my piece". Why are you bringing me back up? Who are you to be giving people "cues" or to characterize the MO of particular posters? I might be wrong in my opinion. But whenever anyone pointed out a factual error, I apologized and moved on. And I was man enough to give up when it was clear that the back-and-forth was not moving anywhere. Maybe I hung around longer than you like, but I respectfully read the points-counterpoints and responded to them as honestly as I could. I don't think that the BringBacktheBlizzard guy and I were ever intentionally talking past each other for more than a point or two in a post. We just disagreed. After awhile, I accepted it and moved on. I didn't even try to have the last word.

    The extent of the opinions that you have offered has been your arrogant criticism of those who are actually posting opinions. You have not added an iota of original thought (or even non-original thought) about your precious "topic". Maybe you don't realize that this thread is not actually about dissing the posting styles of other posters or critiquing their debating prowess. Actually we were discussing a subject important to fans of professional soccer in Canada and the USA. Pot meet kettle.


    Joe McCarthy

    Since we are all airing our dirty laundry today - I might as well confess to being a Conservative who think that SOME of the conventional wisdom about your namesake is hyperbole (since there were a lot of communist party members doing their - rather pathetic - best to undermine our democracy during the Wisconson senator's tenure).

    But that fact notwithstanding: You, sir, are appropriately named.

    Your condescension is almost as bad as your patronizing delivery. If you don't understand that discussions are rather fluid and circuituous and that the question of the potential viability of a CSL or Toronto MLS franchise, or speculations on how either could be viable, are directly concerned with the question "CSL or MLS?" - then maybe you are the guy who should keep things to yourself. Particularly since YOU ARE NOT A MODERATOR IN THIS SUBFORUM.


    Hear, hear.

    [/resumes silence]
     
  12. Stan Collins

    Stan Collins Member+

    Feb 26, 1999
    Silver Spring, MD
    Brought to you by:

    [​IMG]

    Ain't the future grand!
     
  13. Blizzard

    Blizzard Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jun 25, 2002
    Toronto
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Generally, if a company is not paying a per diem, they will cover expenses and meals are expenses.

    In the case of a sports team, the club will either have to provide suitable and sufficient team meals or cover the cost of players individual meals depending on what direction the club decides to go.

    Also, to make the blanket statement that companies don't pay per diems is just out and out incorrect. Some do, some don't. My company doesn't, it pays expenses. A company we use as a contractor does pay a per diem.

    Anyway, this has little to do with what is best for soccer.

    May I suggest that if we wish to continue with this particular line of discussion, that we start a fresh thread entitled "How Can A New CSL Survive In The 21st Century?".

    It clearly has moved from a CSL vs. MSL thread into a CSL viability discussion.

    I welcome comments privately or here on this thread.

    thx

    Blizzard
     
  14. Blizzard

    Blizzard Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jun 25, 2002
    Toronto
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    In all seriousness Doyle, do you really expect professional players to share a bed?

    db
     
  15. DoyleG

    DoyleG Member+

    CanPL
    Canada
    Jan 11, 2002
    YEG-->YYJ-->YWG-->YYB
    Club:
    FC Edmonton
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Your telling me you've never had to share a bed with anyone while on the road?
     
  16. Stan Collins

    Stan Collins Member+

    Feb 26, 1999
    Silver Spring, MD
    Having teammates share a bed on the road is not nearly as wierd as hiving them have no per diem, and having them take greyhound. You're not going to like the players you get to accept such an arrangement.
     
  17. DoyleG

    DoyleG Member+

    CanPL
    Canada
    Jan 11, 2002
    YEG-->YYJ-->YWG-->YYB
    Club:
    FC Edmonton
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    B!tch and complain about a one hour bus ride from Hamilton to Toronto.

    Wimps.
     
  18. TopDogg

    TopDogg Member

    Jan 31, 2000
    Toronto
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    It's not the one hour bus trip by itself. It's your entire proposal that is completely unrealistic.

    Unfortunately you do not have the ability to see that.
     
  19. DoyleG

    DoyleG Member+

    CanPL
    Canada
    Jan 11, 2002
    YEG-->YYJ-->YWG-->YYB
    Club:
    FC Edmonton
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    The only reason you even make such a reamark is because I don't support MLS in Canada.
     
  20. TopDogg

    TopDogg Member

    Jan 31, 2000
    Toronto
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    You keep telling yourself that.
     
  21. Blizzard

    Blizzard Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jun 25, 2002
    Toronto
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Not with the same sex! Are your soccer teams going to be co-ed with a club policy encouraging intimate fraternization?
     
  22. RealGooner

    RealGooner New Member

    May 2, 2005
    Toronto
    Perhaps his league will be "coupled" with a Womens CSL with an identical schedule. Not sure what boyfirends and husbands of the women's playes would think about the sleeping arrangements lol
     
  23. toronto_sports_1 redded

    Sep 15, 2005
    Ontario
    That aside, Concacaf based on past records does not deserve 3 WC spots,
    it should go back to one until the level goes up on this side of the planet.
     
  24. JS-11

    JS-11 New Member

    Sep 28, 2005
    Port Moody, B.C.
    MLS for me. Has anyone mentioned the scenario of the bottom MLS team being relegated to the USL and the top USL team promoted? I'm sure it's been kicked around before, but I know nothing and am sure that a city that just spent millions on a new facility would not appreciate this idea. :confused:
     
  25. RealGooner

    RealGooner New Member

    May 2, 2005
    Toronto
    I don't think that promotion-relegation will work here in North America. I believe that the average MLS team's fanbase is still too small and too fragile to survive their team dropping down into the USL wilderness. I think the league will develop a conference system (i.e East-West) where teams play mostly within conferences and then meet in the MLS Cup. For example you could have a 34 team league comprised of 2 17 team conferences in which teams play a 32 game season. LA would play geographically close teams like, Chivas, San Jose, or a future San Francisco team home and away to stimulate local rivalry. Other more distant teams in the conference like Kansas City, Houston or Dallas etc would be played only once a year. They in turn play eachother twice. The extra dates available from playing some conference-mates only once would go to playing teams from the Eastern conference on a 2 year rotational schedule perhaps. Thus teams in seperate conferences may play only once every 2 years. You could have a league accomodating up to 40 teams playing 38 game schedules with this system, without resorting to relegation-promotion. IMO It would probably be sufficient for the US for the next couple of decades.
     

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