CSL or MLS

CSL!

 

MLS for Sure.

 

MLS with a CSA Cup would be my choice. The american clubs have the US Open Cup, we should have our own cup competition here.

 

CSL. Even if Toronto or another Canadian team gets in MLS, MLS will still be all about building soccer in the US.

 

The big question I have is: suppose you could effectively launch a CSL--how good a league do you think it would be?

A nugget to chew on in that regard: if the sole purpose in life for MLS was as a feeder system for the US NT, it would be unlikely to have 12 teams and be looking to expand.

Would its development potential be weaker if the league fewer teams, say only 6 or so? A few players would probably slip through the cracks that don't now, but for the most part, it wouldn't be much weaker. In fact, if the US NT prospects were concentrated into fewer teams, the level of play might actually be higher (though the downside there is that younger prospects might have a harder time getting PT).

So when you evaluate this choice, it seems to me that what you're pondering is one league that includes more teams (maybe 8-10), but is not all that much above the standard that USL teams play at today, versus another that will have 2-3 Canadian teams max (meaning about 30 or 35 Canadian first-team players and another 20-30 reserves), but will play at a higher level.

My inclination is that the latter would be preferable even if they were equally easy or difficult to pull off (which I don't believe to begin with), because the key here is convincing Canadians that it's possible domestically to make a reasonably attractive career playing soccer, and a bus league just doesn't get that done. If people disagree with that, I'd be interested to hear what their reasoning is.

 

This topic has been thrashed out ad nauseum over on the Voyageur message boards. Nevertheless I vote for having a core of Canadians playing at a higher level over the patriotic notion of having an all-canadian League. MLS gets my vote.

 

I would like to see Canada start there own league not so much because that I don't want them in the MLS but because down the road I would love to see a CONCACAF Champions League in the same mold as the UEFA Champions League.

 

Canadian team where Canadians and Americans are not foreigners.

 

So the American teams have Canadians count as foreigners but for the Canadian teams Americans don't count as foreigners? Don't think so, why would we bother. I don't think we like MLS that much for that to happen.

It's all about Canadian development just as it is for US development below the 49th. Although I doubt the new owners will see it that way. Profit before patriotism.

 

My attitude would be "is there money in it?" And there probably is.

 

Judging by this quote about 30 to 32 teams there is plenty of space in MLS for three Canadian franchises in Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver longterm (who knows maybe Calgary or Edmonton might be able to squeeze in as part of that sort of scenario if some soccer fan strikes it megarich in the oil patch) which removes the one lingering doubt about the advisability of going the MLS route that maybe there would only ever be one Canadian team:-

http://www.mlsnet.com/MLS/news/mls_news.jsp?ymd=20050808&content_id=39181&vkey=news_mls&fext=.jsp

"[With 18 teams] we would be a small league compared to the NFL, National Hockey League, NBA," said Hunt. "I think probably we need to grow to over a period of time somewhere near 30 to 32. Maybe the 18 is perfect for England or Germany or Spain, but I don't think it is really the real world as far as what needs to happen in this country because you will leave out, who would you leave out? Atlanta, Seattle, Houston -- you know with only 18 you are not going to be represented in a lot of markets."

Maybe Lamar Hunt is trying to smooth the way for Toronto entry with this? A lot of the vocal American opposition to Canadian entry on bigsoccer often appears to be from people who are worried that their city would be left out in the cold if the league is only going to expand to 18.

 

The MLS doesnt have to be set up exactly like the European leagues with 18 team divisions stacked one above the other with teams moving between them with relegation/promotion. There is absolutely nothing wrong with an MLS comprised of say, two 18 team conferences (ie East and West). As long as they are playing soccer according to FIFA regulations, the MLS can determine its champion in whatever fashion it chooses. With up to 36 franchises available, accomodating 3 strong Canadian ones will be easy.

 

With only the caveat that I wouldn't add two of them at the same time, for fear of creating a team that stunk it up at first simply because it couldn't make the arrangements to staff itself with Canadian players in time. The US expansion teams have been bad enough this time around in that regard, and you can't just go having an expansion draft for Canadian domestic players, because not enough of them play in MLS.

 

The question of "how good a league do you think it would be?... is too often considered only in the present tense. MLS, for example, is of far higher quality now than it was a decade ago. So the question for me is answered by saying it woul dbe higher than USL today, but permanently below MLS due to player pool, just as Holland is forever doomed to be of lower quality than Germany.

The next question is dependent upon whether or not a CSL would draw the kind of crowds and gain the kind of sponsorship that allows for a living wage to be paid to its players, and a decent professional environment. There would only be three large markets: Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal. Ottawa, Calagary, Edmonton are Columbus, OH size or bigger. Then you'd have 2 markets smaller than Columbus, which would be choosen from, say, Winnipeg, Hamilton & Victoria, the latter being the smallest (Rochester ish, perhaps a bit bigger). Would the league average 5,000? 10,000? more? less? I believe that 10K is doable as an average if proper facilites existed (which they don't) and there were owners committed to seeing it through (also a ?). I think a league can provided decent wages at that kind of attendance levels. The better players will move on, and nobody will get rich playing in the league, but a living can be made.

From my perspective, the more jobs available the better. I have two kids in High school, they are into sports, and there is a distinct difference in the approach HS football players take to training (CFL means they believe a pro career is a possibility) vs. say, basketball players for whom, despite a Canadian team and a small handfull of Canadian players on the NBA, don't see that as realisitc. The football players are far more serious, spend time in the weight room etc. etc.

I am not too concerned about overall quality of play relative to other leagues. Its a mugs game as far as I am concerned to worry about that. As long as its a decent enough quality that a fan isn't gonna mind paying to see it.

Realistically, for how many more years do you think MLS will provide anything more than an occasional A team player for the USMNT. As your better players are moving to EPL, the Bundesliga and other top European leagues, for far more money than they can make in MLS, is it not only a matter of time before your best 11 players are coming from overseas leagues. Yet that should not have a huge impact on MLS generally would it?

 

I couldn't disagree more with this analysis. The vast majority of the players in the USMNT player pool play in MLS. And the majority of those not in MLS have played there.

There's decent evidence that the US's 98WC campaign was hindered by MLS's growing pains, but these days, the league is providing a large and growing pipeline of raw talent for the USMNT - not to mention a growing number of Canadian, Caribbean, and Central American national teamers.

As the quality of play in MLS increases the need for some players to "season their games" in Europe decreases. More and more players opt to stay home and play rather than spend large stretches sitting on European benches.

Frankly, I expect the status quo to be maintained. Meaning you'll see roughly a 50/50 split between MLS and Europe-based MNT starters.

--------------------
To bring this back to Canada, I think the CNT would be better served by having Canadian teams in MLS, especially if it means that Canadian players are no longer considered to be foreigners across the league.

 

I think it is wildly optimistic to expect a new CSL to be better than USL-1. More likely it would wind up being like PDL with crowds of paying spectators in the low hundreds in most cities (augmented by freebies to youth teams) with a level of play from the smaller city teams that would not be much different from the elite senior competitive amateur leagues like VMSL, LSEQ, the CPSL (what they should be classified as even if they are not ) and the OSL in the larger ones. Maybe not such a problem out in Vancouver where VMSL plays a winter season but it is a recipe for near zero spectator interest in the GTA as was usually the case with the CSL from 1987-92.

The population of the metropolitan area of Columbus is over 1.6 million. That is, in fact, significantly larger than Ottawa, Calgary and Edmonton since they are in the 1 to 1.1 million range which is comparable to Rochester. There are about 30 American population centres in the 1 to 2 million range in metropolitan population terns. Columbus (about 1.6 million), Kansas City (just under 2 million), Salt Lake City (either 1.4 or 1.7 million depending on the definition used) and Rochester (about 1 million) have proven to be the exception in supporting pro soccer to the extent that full-time professionalism became viable (based on factors like the strong season ticket pledge drive that resulted in MLS entry for Columbus, the strong MISL & NPSL indoor soccer history of Kansas City, the impressive support for Pro Div 3 in Salt Lake City and of course the Rhinos in Rochester emerging as USL's model franchise). In over 85% of the American cities with those sorts of populations it hasn't happened despite several attempts in some cases. It should also be remembered, however, that Rochester and Columbus in particular are relatively close to other largish cities like Buffalo and Dayton and Cincinnati, respectively, and can draw hardcore soccer support from those areas on a regional basis as well in a way that a city like Winnipeg isolated in the middle of the prairies simply can not hope to. You are basing your entire plan on the hope that sort of interest level in pro soccer would be the norm within second and third tier Canadian metropolitan areas that are significantly smaller than Columbus, Kansas City and Salt Lake City.

Better players = better entertainment product = bigger crowds = higher salaries for key marquee players like Landon Donovan at LA, Freddie Adu at DCU and Eddie Johnson in Dallas. Over time MLS can be expected to get stronger and stronger. Never mind the EPL and the Bundesliga at this point, however, because that is a generation or two away. The reality is that there are relatively few European clubs that pay their first team roster $1 million plus and the competition to get one of those roster spots amongst players is a global one and is very cut-throat. Most players in Europe who don't make it up to the visible tip of the iceberg make considerably less than that. The key to getting a viable pro league off the ground in Canada on a sustainable basis at a genuinely full-time pro level is whether a North American pro league is going to be able to compete with the likes of the small town Norwegian league teams that are currently willing to pay in the $50,000 to $100,000 range in salaries for fringe CMNT Canadian players. USL-1 or a CSL2 can't do that right now. MLS can, particularly, if in future Canadians will have a shot at non-import as well as import roster spots.

 

The "MLS as feeder for the NT" issue could realistically tip either way. On the one hand, a lot of younger players like Fielhaber, Onyewu, Simak, Karby, and Spector have recently chosen the "direct to Europe route" (which may itself not outnumber the younger prospects who have started here: Adu, Gaven, Szetela, Besagno, Barett, etc), but then our salary scale would not have to increase much to be fairly competitive with the lower tier of the Big 4 (Adu's already is), with an added incentive of more chance for PT. I suspect if MLS increases its payscale even moderately over the next few years (and there are reasons to think it will) then it's more likely that almost all young US players will start here than that almost none will.

The CSL is an easier call. You're simply not going to find the investors willing to put massive investment into a speculative venture with possible upside as limited as that arrangement. They're in all probability going to look to scrape by at the semipro level and then try to grow based on profits already earned. But that's been proven by the USL to be a fairly tough business model.