Cristiano Ronaldo ~ Your Favorite Player Is So Much Better!! Thread

The failure on that analysis is that Portugal had a lower elo rating than Argentina and most games, Argentina is facing a team with a higher elo rating than them by a little margin while Portugal is facing a team with a higher elo difference. When you define the bar to "higher elo rating", it doesn't matter if they are 1 elo point higher or 500 elo points higher. You should do based on elo difference, not just if the team have a higher elo. This is much more fair

 

That’s actually not true at all. It’s the opposite. The average elo gap for Argentina in these matches was 91, while for Portugal the average elo gap was 60. So, actually, if anything this is a reason the analysis is biased in Ronaldo’s favor.

 

I'm curious. There are how many games for Messi and Ronaldo? And how many games are friendlies for Messi and Ronaldo?

 

As I said, I only included competitive NT matches, so no friendlies. I’m not at my computer right now so I don’t have the exact numbers at my fingertips, but the total number of club + NT games included in the analysis I provided was 50-60 for both (closer to 60 for Ronaldo, with Messi closer to 50).

 

I was asking only for NT. I would bet my house that Portugal have at least the double of matches against higher elo points teams than Argentina

 

Yeah there is really not point in arguing with this level of analysis.

Messi doing the same good thing multiple times in the match is worse than Ronaldo doing it once in a blue moon because that makes Messi repetitive.

Okay. Sure.

 

It’s more, but not quite double. Again, not at my computer so don’t have the exact numbers, but it was something like 15 for Argentina and 25 for Portugal.

 

Okay, so just FYI @OffTheBallMovement, the average elo difference that these guys had overall in the matches I analyzed in my earlier post (competitive NT+club matches where they faced a higher-elo team) basically could not possibly be closer.

If we look at the version of the numbers I provided that was competitive NT matches + club through 2020-2021, the average elo difference for those matches was 52.6 for Ronaldo’s teams and 52.4 for Messi’s teams. And if we instead look at the numbers I provided that are for competitive NT matches + club through 2022-2023, the average elo difference for those matches was 64.0 for Ronaldo’s teams and 63.5 for Messi’s teams. The average elo difference of the games in the numbers I provided is essentially exactly the same, and Messi contributed more Goals+Assists per match and had a substantially higher WhoScored rating.

 

Lionel Messi - UCL 14/15 Knockouts pic.twitter.com/3cBTgIFC4e

— Λ 🇵🇸 (@TotalLM10i) September 22, 2023

 

This is pointless. You yourself said:

"Cristiano is great at quickly reacting in various, repetitive situations that he has already seen countless of times (somewhat overlapping with tactical intelligence), but if you put him out of the comfort zone of situations that he has trained himself to near perfection, he would have a hard time adapting to new circumstances."

You were probably confusing the players and the teams. When teams break down tiki-taka and force Barcelona to play spontaneously and unrehearsed relying on speed and counter-attacking, Messi looks like a completely different player.

Messi is a player that shoots most of his shots in a preferred comfort zone and similar buildups compared to Ronaldo who is a spontaneous try-anything from anywhere type of player

Simple question...Could Messi have as many pass attempts with half of the ball? You know what the answer to this is so Messi's numbers would obviously become more average in a counter attacking team where he sees much less of the ball and in a team where the build ups aren't mirror images of one another which would require Messi to be more versatile and spontaneous in nature which he is not accustomed to. He is the most repetitive player in the game and Barcelona is the most repetitive team.

Ronaldo does more with a lot less and is more spontaneous and adaptive to fleeting moments not having the luxury for identical build-ups to keep materializing



Watch the pass at 0:53. He's made similar passes but this is one of the best examples of creating a goal from his spontaneous reactions and adaptation abilities. Not to mention his ability to play a diagonal ball with his head. For me, these are the moments that define Ronaldo and speak to his wide range of skills to beat you.

 

Yes, 0.07 more goal contributions is a little advantage. 1 more goal each 15 matches. But I reiterate that I don't agree with the WS ratings system.

 

it’s not just off ball movement tho, the main reason is completeness in scoring (aerial ability , ambidextirity ) as @SayWhatIWant previously said ,it’s also obvious in stats:

Messi goals in KO stages:
40 strong foot in 77 games: 0.52 pg
8 weak foot + 1 header (9 overall): 0.12 pg

Cristiano goals in KO stages:
41 strong foot in 85 games: 0.48 pg
9 left foot + 17 headers (26 overall): 0.31 pg

 

Weak foot goals outside the box:

Ronaldo 21
Messi 3

 

No. The argument and topic at hand was that what Ive said this is just changing topic to yet another topic..

That stat is very misleading because it assumes that all variables are the same and the only thing that is different there is ability to score with different parts of body.

Which clearly is not as the guy who repped your post would be the first guy to disagree with the statement:

"Messi has as good of a weak foot as Ronaldo."

This is what you read out of the stats with your premise.

You cant just pick and choose any interpretation when it fits

Do you agree that Messi has as great weak foot as Ronaldo?

 

Can Ronaldo play as a central midfielder?

I disgaree with basically every sentence.

It is fascinating really. Messi and Barca are repetitive and simple and easy to do and Ronaldo is spontaneous and it is difficult for him and can do everything, yet he doesnt do what Messi does (diagonal line breaking passes to create chances) because... it is repettitive?... and he cares about his image as a non-repetittive player?

I dont follow.

Ronaldo doesnt do those things because he cant. It is simple as that.

And based on the level of repettitivness you need to call someone repetitive player, Ronaldo belongs in that category as well, and virtually every player ever.

Ronaldo has scored plenty of the same goals over and over again. Assisted by the same players, in the same team, in the same competition...

 

Put Ronaldo in the middle and deeper back in a pass oriented/possession team and he would pick out all those same passes. There is no skill or quality that he is lacking to effectively create space and break down a defense. On the other hand, Messi does not have the qualities no matter what role or position/team you put him in to be an aerial weapon, free-kick maestro, perfectly two-footed, make end to end runs beating everybody to score/assist.....etc

This is evidence of you not watching Ronaldo. You have no idea of what you're talking about. Do you really think a man who can backheel 20 yards through a crowded box between defenders to a teammates stride and dribble ping-pong balls with the slickest free-style moves cant make diagonal passes if he decided to make that his style and role? If Ronaldo had the increased possession that Messi has and was able to repeatedly attempt the same goal 4 or 5 times a game until he got it right than ya, his goals would increase. When Ronaldo has 8 shots in a game, one was from 30 yards, one was a crowded header, one was a volley, another was his left foot...Get my point? When Messi has 8 shots what do you think they mostly were seeing he does not attempt extremely long shots, he does not readily shoot with his right foot, he does not get on the end of corners, he shoot a lot of free-kicks. He doesn't use his head.....That leaves his left foot and within a range he is very comfortable....That's the difference.

As @RamyBt pointed out, Ronaldo's variability is what constitutes his record. If you cut some characteristic of his game, he will try another from his vast arsenal of different ways in which he can beat you

 

Of course i disagree with majority of this. Everyone objective would

But the last question. Why doesnt he do all of that then?

Why isnt he more invovled in build up and has more touches?

 

If Ronaldo wasted his time dropping back to engage in keep away I would see that as a waste of time and his skills. He is much better served anticipating movements and running through defenders into space to force direct play and threaten the opposition. The vast majority of those passes around midfield are highly overrated and require no skill or vision to perform. Ronaldo could absolutely do this if he so chose in a possession based system. Often goals are scored without a build-up in midfield and sometimes the midfielders are bypassed all together for a lot of goals scored so don't give me the "you need the midfield to advance the ball" bullshit.

 

So basically every half decent team (not necessarly the best in the world) in terms of ball playing defenders and midfielders can be effective enough to have enough posession and progress the ball forward and actually players who make the difference are forwards with their off the ball movement?

They dictate hwo and where is ball played and how many chances team creates?

 

The weak foot chronicles part 1

 

You're the one saying this, not me

 

If dropping down is a waste of time for Ronaldo because he cant bring value there that means there is not much value to bring in midfield at all and since those are, in your words, easy passes that virtually anyone can do, it means you are saying that.

You are saying that off the ball movement is disproportionatily more valuable than any other segment of the game. Making a run on the flank is much more difficult and important than making a diagonal pass for that run.

Pass is easy and off the ball movement is difficult, that is why Ronaldo, who can do everything, engages vast majority of time in off the ball movement and not making those passes like the one for Nani vs Hungary.

Everyone can make that pass, but nobody has Ronaldos IQ to understand any situation and make that run so being very intelligent, Ronaldo spends his time doing what nobody else can, which is running off the ball

That is what you just said.

 

No, I didn't. You are redefining my argument. I said dropping deep would be a waste of times and skills FROM RONALDO. Precisely because as I said, "he is better served anticipating movements and running through defenders into space to force direct play and threaten the opposition".

I never said "off the ball movement is disproportionatily more valuable than any other segment of the game". If I did so, then quote the post where I said this.

I just think off the ball movement is just as valuable as dribbling and playmaking. You can open space and break lines both by dribbling, passing and off ball movement. You can create a chance both by opening a window of pass into a dangerous area or playing a pass into a dangerous area. I just think off ball movement is very underrated

 

Messi 2018/2019 weak foot chronicles:



@Sexy Beast yes he is worse, what on esrth were you expecting??

 

Always remember folks that a pass doesn't exist without a receiver. In fact, most of the time the receiver is the one "creating the pass" while the passer executes. Takes two to tango.