Cristiano Ronaldo (-12/13) vs Van Basten

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by Tropeiro, Dec 24, 2019.

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  1. Van Basten

    17 vote(s)
    50.0%
  2. Cristiano Ronaldo

    17 vote(s)
    50.0%
  1. Legolas10

    Legolas10 Member

    Real Madrid
    Jun 5, 2020
    Can you please stop showing partial side of the story?

    upload_2021-6-18_14-34-33.png

    ....


    upload_2021-6-18_14-34-58.png



    1.His teammates averaged (70.9) 7.1 ratings , not 6.8 like you said
    And two of his teammates (Meireles and Postiga) were subbed at around 70th minute mark.

    2. Look at the ratings of Forwards and Midfielder ratings in both matches.
    Only 1 out of 6 midfielders and forward teammates of Maradona got a rating of 7.0 or more ( And even that was thanks to the assist which was actually pass to him before that solo goal . Very typical problem with these rating apps )

    On the other side , 3 of 5 teammates of Cristiano received a rating over 7.0
    The other two that didn't get were subbed off as i already said.
    Nani even got nearly an 8.0


    Not to mention, how these rating sites work . A three goal contribution being a perfect 10.0 on whoscored in most of the cases i've seen.
    He scored two goals and had few shots hit the post . So no wonder he will get a high rating (taken into consideration how these sites work) , didn't reach a perfect 10 still

    And as i always say ,the problem with these sites , is that the game is too nuanced to be summarized like that. Basically both Maradona and Cr7 scored the same amount of goals. Except , the nature of difficulty of both goals weren't even remotely close.( Both of Maradona's goals were created from virtually out of nothing ) but both will add upto similiar rating changes lol
     
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  2. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    What media is this? I was not aware of match ratings for old games like this on the internet.
     
  3. Legolas10

    Legolas10 Member

    Real Madrid
    Jun 5, 2020
    Whoscored rating site.
    They only cover modern games since 2010 .
    They only covered that Argentina vs England game as a special case
     
  4. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #79 carlito86, Jun 18, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2021
    Really?
    One of Maradonas goals was a handball

    Its very difficult to match the difficulty of finding a referee who is blind enough to think Diego Maradona could outjump peter shilton without the use of his hand

    The second goal is pure genius
    No one can deny that
    If you want to say by virtue of that goal alone Maradona was in a different category i would begrudge you for that

    Ronaldo did however singlehandedly carry his team
    2 goals(the second was ruthless)
    3 times hitting the post
    Having as much shots as nearly the entire Netherlands team combined(12)
    Creating the vast majority of those shots for himself
    Was an insane ball carrying outlet here
    And created at least 2 clear cut 1 vs 1 chances that should've been converted into assists

    But for thin margins(a couple centimetres to the left or right)
    He could've scored 5 goals+2 assists vs the Netherlands
    This isn't even including the spectacular efforts he had from distance or even the devastating headers

    Just a all round superhuman effort from 42 touches
    Arguably the most objective performance ive ever seen
    Ronaldo came into that game with the mentality of a hitman

    The dutch are going down no matter what(no offense intended to puck)



    The GOAT and yes i said GOAT level ball control he pulled off in the first half at minute 4:05

    Had bergkamp/zidane had pulled that off in a match of that magnitude many here would still be drooling 20 years later

    If you can't appreciate the difficulty and technical beauty of that skill you don't know anything about football

    And even if you can you still don't know anything about football
    just constant crying about social media and how the old days were better

    You need to purchase a vhs player,buy some old tapes of matches by Pele and completely remove yourself from society by voluntarily checking yourself into a retirement/nursing home where you can lock the door and watch his matches on repeat

    If you do that it will be your greatest contribution to human civilisation to date
     
  5. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #80 carlito86, Jul 17, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2021
    Winger or wing forward?

    Goals
    Touches
    Crosses
    Tackling
    Passing

    Cristiano Ronaldo 2006/07 to 2009/10

    92 goals in 10744 PL/la liga minutes
    0.77 goals per 90

    7924 touches in 10744 PL/la liga minutes(119 matches)
    66.5 touches per 90

    530 crosses in 10744 league minutes(119 matches)
    4.45 crosses per 90

    67 successful tackles in 10744 league minutes(119 matches)
    0.59 successful tackles per 90

    4662 passes in 10744 league minutes
    39.1 passes per 90

    Eden hazard 2016/17 to 2018/19

    44 goals in 8364 PL minutes
    0.47 goals per 90


    7174 touches in 8364 PL minutes(92.9 PL matches)
    77.2 touches per 90

    280 crosses in 8364 PL minutes(92.9 PL matches)
    3.01 crosses per 90

    24 successful tackles in 8364 PL minutes(92.9 PL matches)
    0.25 successful tackles per 90

    4938 passes
    53.1 passes per 90



    Alexis Sanchez 2014/15 to 2016/17

    55 goals in 95.7 PL matches
    0.55 PL goals per 90


    275 crosses in 8618 PL minutes(95.7 PL matches)
    2.87 crosses per 90

    7097 touches in 8618 PL minutes( 95.7 PL matches)
    74.1 touches per 90

    120 successful tackles in 8618 PL minutes(95.7 PL matches)
    1.25 successful tackles per 90

    4546 passes
    47.5 passes per 90


    Mo salah 2017/18 to 2019/20

    73 goals in 9069 PL minutes
    0.72 goals per 90

    4961 touches in 9069 PL minutes(100.7 matches)
    49.2 touches per 90

    188 crosses 9069 PL minutes(100.7 matches)
    1.88 crosses per 90

    21 successful tackles in 9069 PL minutes
    0.2 successful tackles per 90

    3004 passes
    29.8 passes per 90

    Sadio mane 2017/18 to 2019/20
    50 goals in 8049 PL minutes
    0.56 goals per 90

    120 crosses in 8049 PL minutes(89.4 PL matches)
    1.34 crosses per 90

    80 successful tackles in 8049 PL minutes
    0.89 successful tackles per 90

    4967 touches in 8049 PL minutes
    55.5 touches per 90

    3250 passes
    36.3 per 90


    Goals per 90
    CR7=0.77
    Mo salah=0.72
    Sadio mane=0.56
    Alexis sanchez=0.55
    Eden hazard=0.47



    Touches per 90
    Eden hazard=77.2
    Alexis Sanchez=74.1
    Cristiano Ronaldo=66.5
    Sadio mane:55.5
    Mo salah=49.2


    Passes per 90
    Eden hazard:53.1
    Alexis Sanchez:47.5
    Cristiano Ronaldo:39.1
    Sadio mane:36.3
    Mo salah:29.8


    Crosses per 90
    Cristiano Ronaldo=4.45
    Eden hazard=3.01
    Alexis Sanchez=2.87
    Mo salah=1.88
    Sadio mane=1.34


    Successful Tackles per 90
    Alexis Sanchez=1.25
    Sadio mane=0.89
    Cristiano Ronaldo=0.56
    Eden hazard=0.25
    Mo salah=0.20

    https://www.premierleague.com/stats...5178&player1isActive=1&player1compSeasonId=79

    Cristiano Ronaldo 07-10 =hybrid winger/dynamic playmaker

    Alexis sanchez/hazard=dynamic playmaker

    Mo salah/sadio mane=wing forward

    If you want to talk about Marco van basten...
    In probably his peak (1988/89) he wasnt even the 10th most effective ball progessor on his own team

    AC-Milan_1988_1989_.png

    Probably one of the least most effective dribblers on his team aswell(i never saw anything special in any of his matches vs reasonably good teams)
    The performance you posted against Leipzig(the final of the 1987 Uefa cup winners cup)

    Just for the sake of context
    Leipzig was really a sub par team
    you can check if you want
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986–87_DDR-Oberliga
    http://elofootball.com/index.php?season=1986-1987#club

    Nobody cares when Lionel messi destroys real zaragoza
    Or Pele destroys the fake Juventus(the infamous 3 sombrero goal)
    The exact same should apply here

    Without wanting to seem way over critical MVB was the spearhead of that saachi/capello team
    One of the best teams ever
    Not a conductor nor a masterful dribbler

    Just A great striker with a superb range of finishing abilities(Probably with romario the most complete finisher of that time)

    Id even propose his all round game for a CF wasnt even unprecedented for his era

    Someone like careca(who outscored him in Serie A 88/89)wasn't less adept at all at linking with the midfield as he did so well with Maradona at napoli


    Just to tackle this briefly
    Its not unprecedented that a striker records 20+ league goals and 10+ assists....
    I think some are making a mountain out of a molehill
    Didier drogba did it in 2009/10, Harry kane did it in 2020/21
    This is before we even get to Thierry Henry(his best seasons)


    In touches per 90(indicative of involvement in build up play)
    Ball progession,dribbling,crossing he legitimately cannot compete against c.Ronaldo
    Not at all


    2006/07 to 2009/10 era CR7 scored more goals then Milan era Marco van basten playing in a much deeper position as Marco van basten,linked up with his teammates considerably more,definitely dribbled more and consistently created more of his own goalscoring chances

    Was more athletic,just as good in the air(he became even better later)
    Better on the set piece,from distance
    Etc..............

    I honestly don't think Marco van basten playing for Milan had a more complete league campaign (or was even necessarily a more complete player) as robin van persie in the PL 2011/12(or the 2011 calender year which was his peak)


    2012_1_RvP-Stats-Study.jpg


    https://www.whoscored.com/Articles/...coreds-2011-Premier-League-Player-of-the-Year

    Someone can point to the low amount of completed dribbles and argue that Marco van basten would have a slight edge(even with the troubling ankle)
    This is mitigated for me by RVPs propensity to create and score with equal measure

    Probably one of the greatest playmaking strikers during his short lived peak

    Estimates by Puckvanheel of MVB in todays era averaging upwards of 8.4 on whoscoreds algorithm are extremely far fetched without any grounding in reality.

    This was RVP playing for a team competing for top 4
    For a superteam i can imagine him reaching 8.1~ (the same range as lewandowski the last 2 league campaigns)

    The exact same range as Milan era van basten for me


    C.Ronaldo(his peak) is between 8.50 and 8.80

    2011
    Best European WF of all time
    8.50~

    2011_12_Ronaldo-Stats-Study.jpg
    https://es.whoscored.com/Articles/W...1-La-Liga-Player-and-Young-Player-of-the-Year



    2014
    best European CF of all time
    8.80~






    The difference between a legend(7.90-8.1)and a ATG level player(8.40- 9.00)

    Ronaldo very likely had 3 league campaigns rated above 8 by the time he was 26 years old(2011)

    2007/08
    2009/10
    2010/11

    The 2006/07 CL campaign was very likely above 8

    3 goals+5 assists in 950 mins(10.5 matches) playing as a Left wing
    47 dribbles completed(4.47 per 90)
    GOAT level ball progressor if there ever was one


    We can use another legendary LW (Neymar CL 2016/17) as a reference point

    3 goals+5 assists in 797 minutes
    5.6 dribbles per 90
    Whoscored avg=8.24




    This was a player closer to Johan cruyff then Marco van basten ever was


    The 2007/08 CL campaign was definitely above 8

    And so was the 2008/09 CL

    Van bastens great European conquests happened after 25 years old(1989)
    Before this c.Ronaldo was already a legend of the competition
     
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  6. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    Check Rooney 2006-2007 to 2008-2009 there and even Tevez, they were monsters as well, specially Wayne. United was a pretty good team back then. But yeah probably Cristiano was a winger/forward 2 in 1 while Van Basten was your typical forward with good skill set. They are pretty much different type of players.
     
  7. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Going by OPTA criteria, I'd be pretty sure the assist to Kaka (albeit for an outside the box 'solo goal') would count, so at the end of 2012/13 C.Ronaldo would have 17 CL assists in 92 appearances (with 50 goals scored, inclusive of 4 penalties)
    Cristiano Ronaldo - Detailed stats | Transfermarkt
    Real Madrid Vs Ajax Amsterdam 4-1 2012/13~ِAjax Vs Real Madrid 1-4 2012/13 [HD] - YouTube
    Cristiano Ronaldo - Penalty goals | Transfermarkt
    PuckVanHeel said:
    Champions League assist-ratio 1992-2012 (minimum 16 assists)
    (excluding preliminary rounds)

    Zidane 27 assists, 80 games (0.337)
    Beckham 34 assists, 105 games (0.323)
    Figo 31 assists, 103 games (0.300)
    Giggs 38 assists, 133 games (0.285)
    Veron 17 assists, 60 games (0.283)
    Fabregas 16 assists, 64 games (0.250)
    Van Nistelrooij 18 assists, 73 games (0.246)
    Kaka 18 assists, 74 games (0.243)
    Nedved 19 assists, 79 games (0.240)
    Eto'o 16 assists, 69 games (0.231)
    Henry 25 assists, 112 games (0.223)
    Lampard 19 assists, 88 games (0.215)
    Xavi 24 assists, 120 games (0.200)
    C. Ronaldo 16 assists, 80 games (0.200)
    Seedorf 24 assists, 125 games (0.192)
    Raul 25 assists, 142 games (0.176)
    R. Carlos 20 assists, 120 games (0.166)
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/d...ler-of-all-time.2114820/page-19#post-39672365

    Van Basten had 14 non-penalty goals, plus 7 assists in 27 European Cup/Champions League appearances. His contribution to his teams goals (via non-penalty goals + assists) being 60% and his assist rate being about 0.26 per game.
     
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  8. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    No, sorry (I mixed myself up about it in the posts I'm referring to, after looking at Transfermakt), I think it is 15 non-penalty goals by Van Basten in EC/CL, and a contribution of nearly 63% from his non-penalty goals plus assists, to the totals scored by his teams.
    Here are the Transfermakt links anyway (I did confirm before the assists would all be OPTA-allowable via video, as per the post I quote below)
    Marco van Basten - Penalty goals | Transfermarkt
    Marco van Basten - Detailed stats | Transfermarkt
    Marco van Basten - Detailed stats | Transfermarkt
    I make it Manchester United and Real Madrid scored about 160 goals in those C.Ronaldo appearances (a bit more but feasible to knock off a couple of goals vs Porto, where he played few minutes in both games in an early season at least I suppose). 46 non-penalty goals plus 17 assists would give about a 40% contribution rate (marginally below) to his teams goals (or very slightly more if it was 160 goals including those Porto games - anyway anyone can count up the goals but I did it a couple of times via the Transfermakt page and it is about 160).

    I know it's not strictly a like-for-like comparison (though taking only the first 27 games for C.Ronaldo would give a worse outcome, and taking the last 27 or 'best 27' wouldn't seem right surely, irrespective of how much that would change things). It is the same competition in effect though, and for every arguably easier game (though some United/Real games in group stages were similar in that respect maybe), there would be an early, or late, round European Cup game vs a top team (similar amount or ratio of those perhaps to what United and Real faced?).

    Anyway, it helps show (also vs Messi for example) the end product, including in terms of assists, that Van Basten did have at that level. I think it's more difficult to compare the Eredivisie to La Liga (but did Ajax have a similar 'team edge' on average to Real, in the majority of games?) or Serie A to a higher scoring Premier League for example. Van Basten surely played much better in the Euros of course (though to be fair not in the 1990 WC) if we compare at the international level.
     
  9. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #84 carlito86, Jul 18, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2021
    Carlos-Tevez-Wayne-Rooney-Cristiano-Ronaldo-Manchester-United.jpg

    Wayne Rooney

    2006/07 to 2008/09

    7379 minutes played(81.9 matches played)
    38 goals
    3206 passes
    4943 touches
    323 crosses
    66 successful tackles




    Cristiano Ronaldo

    2006/07 to 2008/09
    8286 minutes(92 matches)
    66 PL goals
    3543 passes
    6054 touches
    427 crosses
    58 successful tackles



    Carlos tevez

    2007/08 and 2008/09

    4545 minutes played(50.5 matches)
    19 goals
    1909 passes
    2871 touches
    92 crosses
    63 Successful tackles


    Goals per 90
    Cristiano Ronaldo:0.72
    Wayne Rooney:0.46
    Carlos tevez:0.38


    Passes per 90
    Wayne rooney:39.1
    Cristiano Ronaldo:38.5
    Carlos tevez:37.8


    Touches per 90
    Cristiano Ronaldo:65.8
    Wayne Rooney:60.3
    Carlos tevez:56.8

    Crosses per 90
    Cristiano Ronaldo:4.64
    Wayne Rooney:3.94
    Carlos tevez:1.82

    Successful tackles per 90
    Carlos tevez:1.24
    Wayne Rooney:0.80
    Cristiano Ronaldo:0.63


    Cmon @PDG1978
    Out of those 14 non penalty goals probably 10 were scored against non competitive teams
    Screenshot_20210718-082134-1.jpg


    Besides this (as you concede) this is entirely disingenuous)
    Van basten made his European cup debut at 24 years old(1988)

    I don't think youd want to compare Ronaldos champions league record between 2008/09 and 2012/13 to MVB

    Comparing a player in the middle of his peak(1988) to data of someone between the ages of 18 to 27 years old!!!!
     
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  10. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Maybe we should analyse La Liga that way too?

    This goal seems to be missing from that table I think though?
    Goal! Van Basten. 1989. Real Madrid - Milan - YouTube

    Gothenburg did pretty well around that time (including that season, but also later). ELO is delayed and based more on previous seasons I think isn't it?

    Anyway, 2 open play goals and an assist (plus a penalty) vs Real Madrid in 4 games, an open play goal and an assist vs Red Star Belgrade, and a goal vs Bayern Munich, plus 2 in the European Cup Final (if we narrow it to the better teams and look at that only).

    Maybe nearly 20 of C.Ronaldo's goals to the end of 12/13 would be in the same category? (and getting close to 10 of his 17 assists?)
    Cristiano Ronaldo - Detailed stats | Transfermarkt

    Like I say, there are easier games in Champions League group stages nowadays too, to compare to some of the easier ones back then.
     
  11. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Being fair I should say that comparing the same way I did the C.Ronaldo calculations above, Van Basten's contribution rate would be 56.4% for non-penalty goals+assists. I'd knocked off his penalties from his teams goals too when getting the 60%+ figure (as per how Trachta does it).

    Doing it the way Tracta does it maybe C.Ronaldo's figure to the end of 12/13 would be just above 40% (about 46+17 divided by 156), although arguably (following my own preference to remove team-mate penalty goals too, which would reflect better on Cruyff, Dalglish etc like I've stated) a couple of Van Nistelrooy Man Utd penalties would come off the total so that would make it about exactly 41% (still 20% or so behind MvB's figure). For one of them C.Ronaldo was brought down I see, but then Van Basten was brought down too for the penalty he scored vs Real Madrid for example.
     
  12. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    No, he didn't Carlito. He made his European Cup debut for Ajax and played 4 games for them in it (on top of the 23 games you listed that makes the 27 total).

    08/09 to 12/13 then (I don't know the results yet - I'm working them out as I post this)
    39 goals, minus 3 penalties = 36 non-penalty goals
    Maximum 12 assists (I'd need to work out which of the Transfermarkt ones were not in the OPTA total as per Puck's post, but one will be for that Van Nistelrooy penalty before 08/09 of course - there are 3 others)
    Games = 52
    Maximum non-pen goals plus assists per game = 48/52 = 0.92 (Van Basten's was 22/27 = 0.81; minimum C.Ronaldo's could be is 45/52 = 0.87)
    Team goals of Man Utd & Real Madrid = 104 in games he played in CL 08/09 to 12/13
    Non-pen goals + assists contribution (maximum) = 48/104 = 46.1% (Van Basten's was about 56%; C.Ronaldo minimum would be 45/104 = 43.3%).
    Taking out his penalty goals from team totals 48/101 = 47.5% (Van Basten's about 63%; C.Ronaldo minimum would be 45/101 = 44.5%).

    Van Basten's contribution percentage would still be higher (with Man Utd/RM scoring at 2 per game in that timeframe), albeit the pure non-pen goals + assists per game number slightly behind. That's without taking out the Ajax games of course (he did well for them in the CWC and Uefa Cup but in the few European Cup games he played in Ajax were scoreless which doesn't affect contribution % but does bring down the goals/assists per game a bit of course).
     
  13. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #88 carlito86, Jul 18, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2021
    Ill finish with this

    During his first 3 seasons in the CL for real Madrid
    Aged 24 years old to 27 years old

    He played
    2371 minutes(26.3 matches)
    Scoring 23 goals+3 assists
    Playing 1115 passes
    74 dribbles completed

    That's 1 goal+assist per 90
    With 42.3 passes per 90(remember this number)
    2.81 dribbles per 90
    2.04 key passes per 90


    This with probably over 70 touches per 90(dynamic playmaker)


    For reference

    Midfielder/attacking midfielder

    Mesut ozil
    2010/11 to 2012/13 CL
    1974 minutes played (21.9 matches)
    1383 passes(63.1 passes per 90)
    https://www.whoscored.com/Players/13756/History/Mesut-Özil

    Kevin de bruyne
    2017/18 to 2019/20 CL
    1488 CL minutes(16.5 matches)
    1007 passes(61 passes per 90)
    https://1xbet.whoscored.com/Players/73084/History/Kevin-De-Bruyne

    Neymar Jr
    2017/18 to 2019/20 CL
    1747 minutes played(19.4 matches)
    1032 passes(53.1 passes per 90)
    https://www.whoscored.com/Players/50835/History/Neymar







    Dynamic playmaker

    Eden hazard 14/15 to 17/18 CL
    1761 minutes(19.5 matches)
    891 passes(45.6 passes per 90)
    https://www.whoscored.com/Players/33404/History/Eden-Hazard


    Cristiano Ronaldo
    2009/10 to 2011/12 CL
    2371 minutes played(26.3 matches)
    1115 passes(42.3 passes per 90)
    https://www.whoscored.com/Players/5583/History/Cristiano-Ronaldo



    Alexis Sanchez
    2014/15 to 2016/17 CL
    1929 minutes (21.4 matches played)
    880 passes(37.3 passes per 90)
    https://www.whoscored.com/Players/25244/History/Alexis-Sánchez



    Centre forward/FW

    Mo salah
    2017/18 to 2019/20 CL
    2691 minutes played (29.9 matches)
    892 passes(29.2 passes per 90)
    https://www.whoscored.com/Players/108226/History/Mohamed-Salah

    Luis Suarez
    2014/15 to 2016/17 CL
    2448 minutes (27.2 matches played)
    763 passes(28 passes per 90)


    Robert lewandowski
    2018/19 to 2020/21 CL
    2115 minutes (23.5 matches played)
    518 passes(22 passes per 90)
    https://www.whoscored.com/Players/29400/History/Robert-Lewandowski




    Ronaldo 09-11 scored 1 goal+assist per 90 in the CL as a dynamic playmaker(26~ matches)

    Van basten(like suarez,shevchenco and lewandowski) did it as centre forward(27 European cup matches for ajax/Milan)



    There is a marked difference

    If you can't see that there is literally not point in proceeding further
    This is a 'fair' comparison
    Exact Same age(24 to 27)
    Exact same sample size(27~matches)



    To present your case as a like for like comparison defeats all sensibility and logic

    Would you directly compare Luis figo his champions league record at Barcelona to Marco van basten at Milan with rudimentary data(goals+assists)?

    A CF with a right winger?

    Ignoring that figo objectively blows van basten away in every single facet of football outside of finishing

    Ronaldos CL record at Manchester United will be compared with similar type players(ronaldinho gaucho 04-06,Ricardo kaka 04-07,Lionel Messi 06-09)
    Or more recently Neymar jr/Eden hazard
    High volume dribblers/elite ball carriers
    EfSTdUTXkAA51G6.png


    To summarise the only legit like for like comparison is Ronaldo 15/16 -17/18 with milan era van basten(similar profile as a FW)
    We know there however the Dutchman is vastly inferior at CL level
     
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  14. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    #89 PDG1978, Jul 18, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2021
    Pfftt....

    Sorry, I'm out now mate. I said what I have to say (on the topic of this thread only).

    Everyone can draw their own conclusions now. Me and you profoundly disagree because you seem to think Van Basten was nowhere near (his assist rate is better than C.Ronaldo's in the EC/CL overall too, despite years playing as 'dynamic playmaker' allegedly for C.Ronaldo which completely misrepresents his role and abilities IMO - his goal rate per game was above Van Basten's and his assist rate below as I illustrated and his stats are hugely skewed towards goals not assists too and were in his 06/07 to 12/13 period too - I don't see him as some visionary semi-playmaker and we know he was quite selfish in style with lots of shots, despite yes getting a good overall tally of assists over the big amount of games he played overall).

    Everyone else can decide where they sit, but I didn't want to argue with Bada Bing about Messi WC 2014 (even though I did I suppose) and I don't want to argue pointlessly here either (I did say I wasn't going to argue about C.Ronaldo of course, although my post was more meant to be about Van Basten vis a vis the stats because stats do often get used, out of context re: era differences, to rubbish any comparison between Messi/CR7 and former great players, even when the former great players played better with less chances in major tournaments and visually don't seem inferior anyway to me at least...even though you seem to deny they were great with every post you make now and you didn't always do that by any means).
     
  15. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Sorry I should stay a bit calmer. It is best I stay out now though, but I think the bashing of Van Basten (especially skills wise) doesn't sit right with me whatsoever. Nevetheless the voters on this thread don't disagree with me it seems, so no worries I guess....

    Just to do the 15/16 to 17/18 comparison though (whether it was a request or not):
    Cristiano Ronaldo - Detailed stats | Transfermarkt
    Cristiano Ronaldo - Detailed stats | Transfermarkt
    Cristiano Ronaldo - Detailed stats | Transfermarkt
    I can expand on calculations later maybe, but even if none of those assists should be removed as per OPTA that would be (including penalties) a contribution rate of 57.7% by my reckoning if I did it right (including penalties like I say). Yes, the assist/goal rate per game is higher than Van Basten's but Real Madrid scored nearly 100 CL goals in those games (with several blow out wins).

    In the Finals themselves he had 2 goals in 3 games, compared to Van Basten's 2 goals plus an assist in 2/3 CL EC/CL Finals (if including the Marseille one where his career ended).

    He assisted a smaller proportion of Madrid's goals in those seasons, compared to Van Basten's assist proportion for his CL career (not only 3 prolific seasons).
     
    Edhardy repped this.
  16. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #91 carlito86, Jul 18, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2021
    Assists per game by themselves(taken in complete isolation)are NOT indicative of a players creative abilities

    For that we have to refer to passes per game,touches,crosses,key passes and then and only then can we reach a final call

    Any player who has the touchmap of a dynamic player/deep lying forward is a dynamic playmaker
    Whether his name be Cristiano Ronaldo or Johnny nobody
    Whether he shoots 7 times a match or just the once






    Frank lampard regularly topped the premier leagues shots on/off target bracket
    Was he a midfielder(definitely without a shadow of a doubt)

    Van nistelrooy has a higher assists per 90 ratio in the CL then Arjen Robben
    What now?

    Van nistelrooy was more creative??
    Its an argument completely defunct of logic


    Assists taken in corroboration with other pieces of data help to build a picture.
    Alone they can easily be misrepresented (like you are doing right now)


    Fact 1

    Van basten would never score 1 goals+assists per 90 in the CL with 40+ passes over a 3 consecutive year period(with 2 key passes per 90,almost 3 dribbles per 90 etc)

    In his era,this era or any future generation to come

    Classical/archetypal Strikers have never been able to do that for as far back as the data stretches
    Refer to the passing data of players like david suker in WC 1998 or R9 at the same tournament
    Or romario in WC 1994

    Fact 2


    C.Ronaldo at Manchester united was a more proflic dribbler in the CL then Ronaldinho gaucho(this is OPTA not a factoid or some nonesense i picked up on a trash column on bleacher report)

    To recap
    Just before 2009/10-2011/12 CR7 was a more proflic dribbler in the CL then Ronaldinho gaucho
    And then he followed that up by being a more prolific CL scorer then van basten

    This is something you can't seem to digest because your hatred for the player blinds you

    You swap his name with Michel laudrup and those 2 facts and youd have no doubt who was the superior player

    I mean if you could attach those 2 facts to Michael laudrup youd probably in all honesty attempt to argue he was comparable to Lionel messi(using exhausted and debunked 'weak modern era' vs 'strong classical era' conspiracy theories)
     
    RamyBt repped this.
  17. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    CRISTIANO RONALDO VS ATLETICO MADRID(UCL FINAL) - YouTube
    Marco van Basten vs Real Madrid 1989 ★ Complete Striker ★ - YouTube
    Marco van Basten Milan vs Real Madrid (0-1) European Cup Nov 01,1989 Santiago Bernabeu - YouTube
    Marco van Basten ● Goals and Skills ● Netherlands 3:1 England ● Euro 1988 - video Dailymotion

    I know I only show one game of C.Ronaldo there, but it helps illustrate we don't compare one skilled playmaker who happens to score a lot of goals, with a player who plays only in the penalty box waiting to be served tap-ins (maybe you didn't say that exactly Carlito, and I don't disagree he was more a true centre forward while C.Ronaldo was often a goal focused wide attacker, just disagree that one was a better creator while the other didn't do much outside goals - C.Ronaldo isn't a Michael Laudrup, or a Xavi or whoever and neither a Figo in terms of playing role and assist stats (per game)).

    On the flip side if I had been able to find it just as quick (although I guess it's still on Puck's channel, but not under the title Van Basten vs Germany) I might have shown the Germany performance not the England one, for an 'all round' display.
     
  18. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Ruud nistelrooy

    16 assists in 6100 mins(67.7 matches)
    0.23 CL assists per 90

    Arjen robben
    19 assists in 7511 CL mins(83.4 matches)
    0.22 CL assists per 90
    https://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/history/rankings/players/assists/


    Logic of the day
    More assists=more creative
    This is becoming a bit of a joke now

    The 2013/14 CL final vs atletico Madrid
    Read the threads title

    He was also injured

    Still If you compare his performance to the one of Marco van basten in the 1992/93 CL final Marseille(also injured) he looks like Pele on performance enhanced drugs vs a 2nd tier division player

    Ronaldo vs chelsea 2007/08 is a true representation of what he was capable of(1 goal,9 times fouled,12 dribbles completed,crosses,key passes etc)

    I mean bro....
    You picked the absolute worst performance he had in 2013/14 and compared that to the 3 best performances of van bastens career

    And youre supposedly impartial
    Pleassssseeeeee


    I don't know but maybe you think peak atletico were something special ?

    This is 3 months later

    Screenshot_20210718-134754-1.jpg
    https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/862076/Live/Spain-LaLiga-2014-2015-Real-Madrid-Atletico-Madrid

    77 touches
    (The only ones with more were ramos and toni kroos)
    He had more touches then Luca modric and James Rodriguez

    Could you imagine van basten with more touches then Carlo ancelotti?
    That would be a delusion of the highest magnitude

    5 dribbles completed
    (The most on the pitch-Real Madrid had 9 in total)

    5 key passes
    (The most in the match)

    47 passes

    10 attempted crosses
    Etc..
    If you dont know then ill tell you

    This was just one match of Ronaldo in the first half of la liga 2014/15
    (25 goals+8 assists in 14 matches)
    2014_12_La-Liga-Season.jpg

    He achieved one of the highest ever grades in the entire database(9.13)
    Im not really sure you want to compare van basten side by side with this level player

    Its best we stick to the previous time frame
     
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  19. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    That game vs Real Madrid (away) was not one of the best of his career in 89/90, just an available example where he dribbles a lot, sets up some chances, is fouled a lot and suchlike (maybe you can estimate a WhoScored score or something if you really want).

    That graphic shows 6.3 shots per game (with Messi down on 4.8 and Bale on 3.6). Not the stats of a selfless playmaker to be fair. Less than 2.3 dribbles per game too (not sure how much less). That Real Madrid game for Van Basten can be an example where he has a lot more than that, but of course I don't have average numbers over seasons (so that's why it's difficult to compare re: WhoScored stats etc too).
     
  20. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    And I agree that assists alone don't show creativity (and forwards/strikers can get a lot by virtue of being in attacking positions in part). I just don't feel it's right to say CR was a great playmaker and a great scorer in one though, and I think in certain big games vs top opponents (when Portugal exit the Euros, World Cups, but also latter stage Real Madrid CL games quite often) it's evident that he's not making things happen in the playmaking department (I don't think he has/had the intuition of a true playmaker, or the vision of the game in a creative sense - not moreso than Van Basten who may well have taken less shots...although he did take a few that went off target in the 1990 WC I know! - while also still setting up Gullit for a chance vs England though and showing a degree of skill and creativity even in that disappointing World Cup for him).
     
  21. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I didn't really mean to only mention Real Madrid there. Manchester United could fit too, so 'latter stage CL games' might be what I intended, including the final vs Barcelona for example where it might be said he was lively early on, but I wouldn't say he was making things happen in the playmaking department.

    Anyway, I'm only clarifying, not trying to start any arguments up again (I was quite glad Carlito didn't continue as I was definitely ready to stop myself!).
     
  22. benficafan3

    benficafan3 Member+

    Nov 16, 2005
    That's because his intuition supersedes a playmaker's intuition because his is that of a goal scorer. A playmaker's function is to make plays, which may or may not lead to goals. Otherwise put, it may or may not lead to winning. A goal scorer's function is to score goals, the most difficult aspect of the game, because it is the only way to win games, making it the most valuable function. A playmaker can make a million plays but their value is predicated on whether a goal is scored. A playmaker (by definition) needs a goal scorer, the goal scorer does not need the playmaker.

    Furthermore, his actual goal scoring prowess requires that he is constantly not only attuned to what any playmaker is thinking/doing, but that he is also working with any playmaker in creating the spaces/moves for the playmaker to feed the ball to. A playmaker's function, by definition, requires a teammate to be on the receiving end. And more often than not Ronaldo's the one creating for the playmaker.

    Lastly, Ronaldo started his career a winger and the first season where he was actually considered a Top 3 player in the world (2006/2007) was as a winger, with 2007/2008 where he started honing his true ability, goal scoring. The function of a winger is to create goal-scoring opportunities from wide positions, requiring a creative vision of the game you claim he didn't have. Given that he was able to become a Top 3 player in the world in that position I believe proves your last point in the quoted sentence incorrect.
     
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  23. benficafan3

    benficafan3 Member+

    Nov 16, 2005
    #98 benficafan3, Jul 20, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2021
    @PDG1978 there was just a thread posted on Reddit that explains well why Ronaldo's intuition of the game excels a playmaker's and why his intuition makes him arguably the greatest goal scorer in history. And how it lead him to being not only the greatest goal scorer by far (and even 'by far' may be underestimating it) in the toughest competition during his career, but led him to outscoring all teams within the competition itself in the knockout stages, except for Bayern Munich. Why would such a player ever be focused on playmaking? Nonetheless, please make sure to read the last point below as well.

    'His overall record is impressive enough but what was even more impressive was his ridiculous consistency in scoring in the biggest matches, specifically the knockout games after the Round of 16 (i.e the Quarter Finals, Semi Finals and the Final). He had 30 goals in 30 matches in these stages of the CL from 2011-2018.

    First, let's compare that tally to other players and how many goals they scored in these stages from 2011-2018:

    Cristiano Ronaldo - 30

    Robert Lewandowski - 10

    Karim Benzema - 8

    Thomas Muller - 8

    Neymar - 7

    Sergio Ramos - 5

    Lionel Messi - 5

    Luis Suarez - 5

    It is quite evident here how far ahead of everyone else he is, notching in 3 times more goals than his closest player. How about we compare Ronaldo's goal tally to the goals scored by other teams during this period:

    Bayern Munich - 51

    Cristiano Ronaldo - 30

    FC Barcelona - 28

    Atletico Madrid - 16

    Juventus - 16

    PSG - 13

    Liverpool - 13

    Chelsea - 11 (Real Madrid is excluded from this list, obviously)

    Yes, that's right. He alone outscored every team, bar one, in Europe's Premier club competition, consisting of the world's best teams.

    Other notable statistics: • 4 hat-tricks were scored in these stages (QF + SF + Final) of the Champions League from 2011-18. 3 out of those 4 were scored by Cristiano Ronaldo.

    • Ronaldo scored 47 knockout stage goals in 44 matches during these 7 seasons. Only Lionel Messi (49) has more overall knockout stage goals in Champions League's entire history.

    • During Real Madrid's historic 3-peat, Ronaldo scored 21 knockout stage goals. The only other team to score more knockout stage goals was Bayern Munich.

    • He also had more assists (26) from 2011-2018 than any other player, taking his total goal contributions up to 118 in 83 matches.'
     
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  24. benficafan3

    benficafan3 Member+

    Nov 16, 2005
    That makes my most recent post even more relevant. Ronaldo's goal scoring in those latter stages is not only multiples of any other player, it exceeds all but one team. Despite that, he also leads in assists in the latter stages of the Champions League.

    And yet, you're claiming there's still more he should be doing? Seems a ludicrous expectation and standard that you're clearly not using for any other player. That's actually the definition of bias.
     
    RamyBt repped this.
  25. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I don't agree mate, but let's just leave it at that. Was Gary Lineker far more valuable and important than Paul Gascoigne in World Cup 1990 for example, or did they need each other to be effective in terms of adding to the goals tally (not every Lineker goal was set up by Gascoigne, granted)? Sometimes an assist will be far more difficult or impressive than the goal that is scored as a result (although sometimes vice versa). Ok, I said let's leave it at that then wrote some more things now lol (but as explanation of my perspective).

    It's not impossible to have great intuition as both a playmaker and a scorer though - they are not mutually exclusive I mean in theory although a player might well prioritise one aspect of the game or specialise in it and we'd agree he does those things more for scoring than making plays (already from 07/08 or before, and stats don't say everythhing but in terms of end product which in his case I think is the primary thing that will show effectiveness, the goals outweighed the assists multiple times that season).

    I probably went into things more than I intended (Carlito knows already that I requested not to get into debates about him again; in this case it was kind of inevitable when making an on-topic post on the thread but it was intended more initially as a post in favour of Van Basten in terms of end product comparisons in general, when adjusted for contributions and different amounts of games; but I'd say that video I posted vs Real Madrid (away, in 89/90, as opposed to the one at home at 88/89 where he probably plays better because he's allowed to a bit more without quite the same treatment, and playing at home) does also show how hard it could be for him (particularly, but similar players too, and attackers in general around that time to an extent) - he's almost jumping away from incoming challenges to protect himself after the Nth harsh foul against him (in that respect, modern football has improved on that overall I would say to be fair, but it doesn't mean star players back then were worse if you follow what I'm saying).
     

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