Crew's Williams on Loan To Palace and his Comments

Discussion in 'MLS: News & Analysis' started by Liverpool_SC, Oct 28, 2003.

  1. Liverpool_SC

    Liverpool_SC Member

    Jun 28, 2002
    Upstate, SC
    http://skysports.planetfootball.com/article.asp?id=169943&cpid=10

    Isn't this curious? He is reporting that MLS is a flair league relative (to the admittedly rough and tumble) First Division.

    I think it is safe to say - guys who are tweeners between the first and second division of the Nationwide League (Williams, Powell, etc) cannot expect to waltz into MLS and be stars. Its more of a question of whether they can even hold down a starting spot and be impact players.
     
  2. gnk

    gnk Member

    Nov 1, 2000
    Rockville, MD
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I thought the guy was a rookie when I saw him play last week at RFK. Admittedly, he did not deserve to have the PK called against him, but I was stunned to learn that the guy was a "season" veteran of the English 1st Division.
     
  3. Northside Rovers

    Jan 28, 2000
    Austin TX
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Interesting how a guy who had what looked like ZERO postive impact for an MLS team that will miss the playoffs can quickly go to a mid-table DIV 1 team.

    Makes you wonder where Eddie Pope or Chris Armas could play.
     
  4. HalaMadrid

    HalaMadrid Member

    Apr 9, 1999
    I don't want him to go anywhere, but Madrid sure as hell would be able to use Armas.

    And I mean it.
     
  5. Liverpool_SC

    Liverpool_SC Member

    Jun 28, 2002
    Upstate, SC
    For what it is worth, Crystal Palace has had terrible injury problems in central defense the last couple of years and Simon Jordan has seriously limited the expenditures. Also, being a loan signing - Williams can join the team immediately. Crystal Palace would otherwise have to wait until January to sign a player (unless he were a free agent). He will probably only be a squad player for Crystal Palace. I believe they still have players like Curtis Fleming, Danny Granville, Tony Popovic and Kit Symons. But they did just lose one of their best players on a loan/purchase from West Ham (I think it was Hayden Mullins?)

    I wouldn't be surprised if the Crew/MLS do just about anything to bolster the value of Williams/make a little money off him in case he doesn't stick with MLS or doesn't even want to return. 5 yellow cards in 5 games, giving up a pk and basically struggling with the pace of the league - if he is going to be embarrassed thoroughly or get stuck on the bench, he may not want to remain in MLS. I hope that they didn't pay much to begin with.

    I don't think it is any embarassment to the league at all if we sign experienced Division I players and they struggle to adjust to the pace of the league. Lots of english fans laughed when they saw Mark was coming this way, as if the fact that he was signed was establishing the level of our league. If anything, the level of our league found Mark out.
     
  6. dcufan1984

    dcufan1984 Member

    Feb 17, 2002
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    and at least mark respects the league and seems like the type of player that is willing to work hard at succeeding here.

    he may not work out, but 5 games (after a layoff) in a new league is not exactly the best trial. i say give him til next season to reach a verdict.
     
  7. soccerfan

    soccerfan BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 13, 1999
    New Jersey
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    except MLS would want lots of money and the teams would have to go thru the work permit crap and deal with MLS, to much headache , that is why
     
  8. kyledane

    kyledane Member

    Jan 28, 2000
    Near San Francisco
    STILL the most overrated player in MLS. Wow.
     
  9. HalaMadrid

    HalaMadrid Member

    Apr 9, 1999
    You have got to be kidding me.

    You want to talk overrated, let's talk Donovan or Cobi.

    Armas is the player that kept Chicago motoring along without missing a beat all season. Just because he doens't get statistics, doesn't mean squat.
     
  10. Deuteriumoxide

    May 27, 2003
    Rockville, MD
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There shouldn't be any problems for Pope or Armas because they have played in the required amount of full national team games in the last year. (What is it 3/4's?)
     
  11. Fuegofan

    Fuegofan Member

    Feb 17, 2001
    Chicago
    Actually I think the requirement for # of national team matches is only an EPL thing. The other top leagues don't have that rule. They do have the whole EU rule, though, which makes getting a work permit challenging despite the lack of EPL rule.

    I concur with Hala re: Armas. Despite the fact that MLS would want a lot for him, by Madrid's standards it wouldn't be that much. And they don't want to be shelling out money for a guy who won't sell them shirts. Armas might sell them some shirts in the US, a relatively untapped market for them, come fairly cheaply, and be able to act as a link between their (lack of) defense and their attack, which they lost when they lost Makelele.
     
  12. Casper

    Casper Member+

    Mar 30, 2001
    New York
    You're allowed to think he's overrated, but Liam didn't say he was one of the world's best, just that he would fit in well with Madrid. He's nearly a perfect fit for that team; dirty-work midfielder who wins balls and gets it to his more attacking minded teammates, follows up offensive runs to pick up rebounds or balls dropped back to the trailer. A perfect complementary player in a midfield with Beckham, Zidane, Figo, etc.

    You're still allowed to think that there's a better player out there who could play the same role for Madrid, but he would certainly fill a need.
     
  13. Liverpool_SC

    Liverpool_SC Member

    Jun 28, 2002
    Upstate, SC
    Most of the other leagues do not require a work permit. They do have other rules, however.

    For instance, some leagues have a minimum salary for foreign (non-EU) players to prevent teams from signing them as cheap alternatives to domestic players. I believe Holland and Belgium have this type of rule.

    Other leagues (Spain and Germany for instance) simply cap the number of non-EU players in a side. I believe German teams are limited to 7.

    But there are no other requirements (such as national team appearances) and no formal work permit application process for playing in most continental leagues. This is why unproven players such as Taylor Twellman could play in Germany. Or why Vanney can play in France, etc.

    In the past, England (like Germany) limited the number of non-EU players that could be in a gameday squad. That rule expired, however.

    Also - the work permit thing is a UK Home Office (their INS) thing - not a EPL rule per se. As a result, it also applies to the Nationwide League, Scottish Premier League (and ostensibly the Welsh Premier League, I guess).
     
  14. Liverpool_SC

    Liverpool_SC Member

    Jun 28, 2002
    Upstate, SC
    Does Armas still have the pace he needs? I know he looked a touch slow in the Nats appearances I saw him in recently. Has he recovered his speed as his knee has strengthened?

    Also - La Prima Liga limits the number of non-EU personnel in the side. I am not sure that Armas would be the type of player that Spain would utilize to take up one of these spots (although they do not have that many "foreigners"). I think their are only three positions for a non-EU player in the side. I believe this is the reason why they loaned out a South American midfielder to Bayer Leverkusen or some other Bundesliga team. Seria A has a similar cap on non-EU players.

    That cap was at the center of a lot of forged passport documents amongst the many Argentinian players in Seria A (including Juan Sebestian Veron).

    Also, Armas may be a tad old. A better bet might be Mastroeni. I know it won't happen, but he would be a similar player to Ivan Helguera - a hard-man who can slot in in the center of defense or the midfield and who is pretty mobile. He is not as determined and consistant as Armas, though. Way too many cards.
     
  15. soccerfan

    soccerfan BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 13, 1999
    New Jersey
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    we were discussing how Williams got a quck transfer to first Div Crystal Palace, then wondering where Armas or Pope would fit in, wondering why not them?
    1 MLS would ask to much money
    2 Williams is familiar with the english game and the teams familiar with Williams,
    3. Teams would still have to go thru more paper work with americans( Pope,Armas) then Williams
     
  16. HalaMadrid

    HalaMadrid Member

    Apr 9, 1999
    Claude Makelele: 18 February 1973 (30 yrs old)
    Chris Armas: 27 August 1972 (31 yrs old)

    While other points are well made regarding his name recognition, citizenship, etc. I don't think age is an issue. 30ish is a prime age for defensive midfielders.

    It was just a theoretical, anyhow. I don't hold any pretensions of Armas pulling on the whites. He would be an excellent fit, were he on the team, though...and he's always reminded me of the middle-term Fernando Hierro (between his early a-mid days and his late central defender/sweeper days).

    Overrated, no way.
     
  17. Liverpool_SC

    Liverpool_SC Member

    Jun 28, 2002
    Upstate, SC
    Plus, MLS ain't big on loan deals for domestic players.

    Remember. This is a loan deal. Not a transfer. Though they would still have to get a work permit for a loan signing, it would be pretty easy to get it fast-tracked for Pope or Armas. I think that McBride's took a week or maybe two at most to clear.

    But MLS does not want to run the risk of hurting players (ala Ben Olsen) and so they have resisted a lot of loan deals.

    Williams is a different case. He is not a star in the league. He is out of shape. And MLS wouldn't give a flip if an English team bought him back for a price a little above cost, or pays "rent" on his current salary. Its not like Crew fans would be ticked off if the team lost Williams today. But Fire and Metrostars fans would be really ticked if Pope or Armas got hurt playing for another team. It makes MLS look like idiots.

    No one would blame Pope or Armas if they wanted to take loan deals, and MLS might let them do it. But it is not as likely to take place as a loan signing of a player who did not originate in MLS. I know there are not too many indications that our star players = x amount more fans in attendance or whatever, but MLS does not want to get a reputation as a league where all of the good players are on rent.

    It would also be interesting to find out what kind of clauses players like Powell or Williams, the latter of whom at least has not even attempted to hide his desire to get back to England if the right deal comes up, stipulate with MLS during negotiations. It wouldn't surprise me if they have guarantees that MLS will not hinder them from attempting to find new clubs in England, so long as MLS gets a good financial result out of it. MLS would be smart to do this too, because it probably helps keep signing bonuses down. If Williams and Powell know that MLS needs a specific dollar figure transfer fee before they can hope to get back on similar wages in England, they are probably willing to take less up-front money in order to lower MLS' minimum transfer amount.
     
  18. purojogo

    purojogo Member

    Sep 23, 2001
    US/Peru home
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Agree on all points....but you must mean Atletico Madrid, right? An even then, that might be a stretch....
     
  19. Jose L. Couso

    Jose L. Couso New Member

    Jul 31, 2000
    Arlington, VA
    I am glad to read his comments.

    Williams seems to be a classy guy.
     
  20. Scoey

    Scoey Member

    Oct 1, 1999
    Portland
    Does anybody know why on earth the Crew went after this guy? I saw three of his games, and he was horrible in all of them. You could see that he had the potential to be less horrible, but jesus...why was he even brought over here? Was his awful play a massive dip in form (I hope this is it) or did the Crew (or MLS) totally misjudge his ability? I'm a bit baffled.
     
  21. kyledane

    kyledane Member

    Jan 28, 2000
    Near San Francisco
    I don't care about statistics - I care about basic soccer skills and so do teams in Europe. Armas is missing some of those basic skills. Basic ball control - trapping, playing the ball to your teammates into spaces rather than into trouble, moving *past* defenders on the dribble. If I see any of these things done well by Armas, it is a rarity.

    And overrated - let's go back and talk about the hand-wringing that accompanied Armas' 2002 injury. The death of our World Cup hopes, or so his supporters said. Instead, in my opinion, we were a better team without him than we were with him. For some reason, fans overvalue the things he does well - win balls, hustle around and play the ball backwards to his defenders. Thus, he is overrated.

    And this comes out when fans claim that our World Cup hopes are in the toilet without him, or that he might be of some interest to a powerhouse European club.

    They weren't and he isn't.
     
  22. Mattinho

    Mattinho Member

    Jan 27, 2000
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Nuts, you're absolutely nuts. Maybe when Armas learns not to trap a three foot pass over his head then maybe, maybe he can work as Zidane's shoe shiner.
     

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