CR7 vs Ronaldinho (prime only)

@carlito86

That goal is not an outlier for Messi. I can show you 5 goals where he dribbled multiple defenders and scored. Clean technique in his dribbling

 

Cristiano Ronaldo was a very talented young man, electrifying pace, full of tricks, desire and willpower. He also had a good cross and a good shot.
He improved his off-the-ball movement and the decision-making question over the time, but the base was already there.

Ronaldinho was also very talented as young (integral part of Brazil U17 World Champions in 1997, Golden Ball, Golden Shoe of the Confederations Cup 1999, without the champions bonus, Brazilian League Bola de Ouro in 2000), but I don't think Ronaldinho had the mentality of Cristiano Ronaldo, not even close.

 

You mean scoring peak !?

 

Did you notice that there is ball possession data for each player in the 2009-2010 season? This gives more or less a base to compare the involvement of each player compared to their team possesion. I guess Cristiano Ronaldo and Messi weren't so different in terms of being involved in this season, considering that Barcelona still had more possession of the ball than Real Madrid, I believe.
In the last season of Cristiano Ronaldo at Real Madrid, however, the result should be very different. My take is that both were more or less equally involved in their team play early days (09-10), but since then Messi became more involved and Cristiano Ronaldo more marginal (if you compare their 09/10 season to 17/18 season).

 

And there will continue to be so many clowns on this forum that fight against the reality that Cristiano Ronaldo was able to become the dominant player in the most difficult competition of the sport's history... dominant over a player who had all the amenities and benefits at his disposal as Messi has had. Lol.

MORE THAN 20+ goal difference vs. Messi to begin with in the most difficult part of the Champions League when most players don't even have 20 goals to begin with in this part of the CL.

 

^ It's worth noting that Ronaldo played all his CL knockout games in his prime whereas Messi played a bunch from 2006-2008 outside of his prime. If we take just 2009 till present for Messi we get 45 goals and 14 assists in 63 knockout matches which is a 0.937 G + A ratio, practically identical with Ronaldo.

Also besides the sample size there with 71 and 79 games isn't that much. I wouldn't make too much of those numbers to be honest to begin with. One hat trick performance can shift these numbers significantly.

 

71 and 79 is a decent amount of sample size lol. And about Messi's stats i believe a big portion of them are in round of 16 ties probably. Ronaldo has better stats in later stages of the competition starting from quarterfinal to final ,anyone watching the champions league would know that.
But you could say stats isn't everything obviously. And big portion of Ronaldo's scoring spree in later stages of CL came when he changed his role in the game and started being more of a goal-bound player . While messi had a different kind of role in the recent years .

 

lmao, c'mon man, you serious with this?

1) Statistically, it's decent enough to draw conclusions from. Would it be better if it was 100? Yes, but to say you can't draw conclusions from that size of a sample is incorrect.

2) You realize that this is a sport where players have literally stamped their entire career legacy from national team tournaments alone? Take away the 1986 World Cup from Maradona and let me know where he ends up ranking in the scheme of things.

 

Most difficult competition for whom? If anything the difference between both his and messi's team vs opponents they faced on average when they played were far higher than what was in the 90s and 80s before the rise of super-dominant teams (where it was more close between the teams) .
Dominant over a player who had all amenities and benefits at disposal as Messi had . I agree partially with this part . But Cristiano Ronaldo too had almost close level of amenities and benefits at his disposal. And i agree he made the most out of it.
And i'd classify him more of a dominant scorer/decisive than a dominant overall player in later part of the competition

 

For any team that wants to win it. It's why until CR7's Real Madrid, no team successfully defended their title while the competition has been the Champions League.

Your comment regarding the average difficulty of opposition being higher in the past could still be true (and I'd say it is), if we're measuring the general competition, from start to finish. But when you get to the higher levels of the competition that does not hold because yes, the concentration of talent is focused on a smaller amount of teams, which has, in turn, led to the lower level of variation in Champions League winners. Because winning it is no longer as easy as it was in the past. Super-team or not.

 

Very contradictory.

If between 2010-2020 you were part of one of the super teams: Bayern, Real and Barcelona you were more likely to win the Champions League than playing in any team in the past, precisely because the talents were concentrated in fewer teams, as a proof of that we have had little variation between the champions in the last decade, so it was easier to do that playing for the big names.
Different context would be win the Champions League with a medium level team, that is much more difficult than in the past. This is a matter of logic.

The Champions League will still be probably the biggest club title competition, but the World Cup will always be the most valuable (for players especially, defending the colors of yout nation will always carry more weight, 4 in 4 years) and more competitive (except in theory for 3 or 4 games), theory, because players put an extra effort in the WC much more so than in the UCL.
In any case, it was easier to be UCL champion with Real Madrid, Bayern and Barcelona in the past decade than be WC champion with Spain, Germany or France (or Brazil, Argentina, Belgium, England, Italy, Portugal, Netherlands etc).

The World Cup will always be the biggest stage/highest standard of football played around the world.


PD: Like I said, probably the UCL will be the respective for the clubs in the future, but strong leagues like the English Premier League today, or as it was in the 80s and 90s, the Italian Serie A, can take the place as the most prestigious competition for clubs, depending on the circumstances. This can happen.
Maradona possibly gained more reputation with his italian titles, for example, than he would gain with two european cups.

 

Contradictory? Why do you believe the World Cup, which you hold as the highest standard, has had so few winners? Even relative to the Euro? This is a matter of logic.

And you're factually incorrect. The World Cup is not the highest standard. The Champions League is because it, by mere logistics, allows for the participation of all the highest level players, regardless of their nationality, which many times does not allow some of the best players to play in the World Cup by their being part of a lower-quality nation (team). This, again, is a matter of logic.

 

The bold is a ridiculous thing to say lol. As if players are holding back effort to win the Champions League.



Hugo Loris can't even outright say winning the World Cup with France would supersede winning the Champions League with Tottenham. I've even seen an interview where De Sciglio said he'd rather win the Champions League than the World Cup. It was surprising to hear but you seem to very much underestimate what the Champions League actually means and what it means to players.

 

Of course it is, I already explained it in my first post. Euro will never have the weight of a World Cup as well, and the Euro champions usually play in the next World Cup as well, like Portugal in 2018 (too bad they failed to a small Uruguay tho).

You are acting as if this phenomenon of bringing the best players in the UCL clubs wasn't something more recent (~10-15 years old) and not something super concentrated as it was in the last decade (Bayern, Barcelona and Real Madrid dominating everything with occasional appearences of the ones Liverpool, Juventus, Atlético), I would say it is even more concentrated than in the World Cup nowadays.

Btw, is it really necessary to explain why playing with the NT is more emotionally important for all players than playing with the club? You know the reality.

Fact is the World Cup will always be the highest point in a player's career. They will exchange any trophy they won for leaving their mark for their country. The World Cup will always remain the biggest show, the biggest attraction, the big stage

https://the18.com/soccer-learning/world-cup-vs-champions-league

but also the highest level of football played, not only technically, but in all aspects, historically, emotionally and etc.

... and I saw this Tottenham vs Liverpool final, which was boring and ordinary. 1% of the iconic that is a World Cup final. haha... that is why what Maradona did in 1986 is much more remembered than Messi or Cristiano Ronaldo did in any edition of the Champions League recently, even if it was in 1986 and not in 2016... I bet most Cristiano Ronaldo fans don't even know against who he played in the UCL 2016.

Today I would say that winning the EPL is almost as important as winning the UCL in terms of prestige and global recognition.

 

This just isn't true. The Champions League has the best players the World Cup offers along with other players that can't perform in the World Cup because they come from countries with a low talent pool so there is no logic behind your statement. It offers the other things you stated and of course in terms of importance and significance it is first but even then your comment 'more emotionally important for all players' also isn't true by the mere single example (De Sciglio) that I gave you. I would expect the vast majority to respond with the World Cup but to say 'all' is not correct.

The phenomenon you mentioned in the second paragraph was amplified with the Bosman ruling in 1995 so I am quite aware of it.

Lastly, if the World Cup was the highest standard, as you claim, then Miroslav Klose would not be the all-time scorer. A very good player in his own right but not even considered world-class during his career never mind historically. Take a look at that list of players in the graphic above and you'll see the level of quality required to get into that group.

 

Also, the mere fact that club teams have infinitely more time to prepare and work together, there is absolutely no chance that the technical standard of the World Cup is higher. None whatsoever.

 

Klose was a very good player (I agree) if not a world class player and his goal scoring rate (0.67 per game) is quite good, but most surprisingly he scored two times more than the expected (0.34 per game), so he was basically a phenomenal prolific goalscorer in the World Cup.

https://www.statsperform.com/resource/miroslav-klose-a-world-cup-legend/

When Cristiano Ronaldo scored at rate of more than 1 GPG in the UCL, he never scored twice his expected goal rate. It is usually based on the expected goals that you analyze which team came closest to the expected victory and played for the most dominant team.
I mean playing for the big powerhouses of the last decade in the UCL was probably a easier work than be the focal goalscorer in an all-Germany national team, perhaps (or I would say probably?).
https://www.infogol.net/pt-br/player/cristiano-ronaldo/1892

Btw, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIFA_World_Cup_top_goalscorers
A lot of bigger names than Klose.

 

This is just pure silliness lol

 

In your analysis of these club teams its seemed you've lacked consideration on one important aspect: how difficult it is to even get the opportunity to get into these teams, never mind making an actual impact with them.

If it was easier, why was Klose's club career, relatively speaking, unremarkable?

 

Great, perhaps it was more difficult to win the EPL than the UCL.

I was comparing EPL with UCL and not with the World Cup. These btw weren't the two best EPL teams (only Liverpool was) this year, and most UCL finals have lower level than the WC finals.
If you are searching for the supposed best club game I would recommend you check Elo ratings before.

It varies from year to year and the teams that each superclub faces. The best teams in the recent decade were Real, Barcelona and Bayern (almost all of their best players played in the World Cup btw), that doesn't mean their Bundesliga and La Liga were better than the EPL.
In the past two-three years things have changed a lot in all ways, and the EPL's superiority is starting to be more demonstrable.

I would say that if they hire the next great world players (as it was with Cristiano, Messi, Suarez and Neymar in the last decade... could be Mbappe, Haaland, Sancho of todays) they could become the strongest national league of all time, even surpassing the Italian Serie A from the 90s...because they have more depth, more international players, better brand, global repercussion and more financially capable teams.
This is what La Liga was never as attractive as the EPL in the past decade, more than Real and Barcelona.