That's not what i am saying: There are 3 elements to scoring goals: ability to finish chances (Messi >> Ronaldo) ability to get yourself in chances to score (Ronaldo > Messi) time spent close to goal (Ronaldo >> post 2015 Messi) 1. Messi is a much better finisher. His left foot alone is top10 player of all time. Less versatile finisher but that doesn't matter. Overall he is crushing xG more so than Cristiano. This is also seen by an eye test. I am yet to find someone who sees all of their seasons goals and says that Cristiano scores better and aestethically prettier goals. 2. Cristiano gets himself into much more chances than Messi. Mostly because he is better at it, but partly because he has that kind of role. This is where Cristiano's versatility to score goals come into play. His ability to score a header or with his left foot, allows him to get himself in more chances, but it doesn't compensate for overwhelming difference in their finishing abilities. Messi is much craftier finisher. which leads me to my final point: Time. 3. Cristiano spends much much more time in front of goal, especially in big games post 2016. Luxury that Messi hasn't had in past several ucl campaigns due to lack of quality of his team. That is the number one reason that explains Messi's "disappearing" in big games for both Barcelona and Argentina. If you look at Roma away 2018, you will notice that Messi barely had any touches in dangerous areas. The much more accurate way of looking at someone's goalscoring abilities is, not on per games basis, but per minutes spent in penalty box basis, because that accounts for quality of your team. The more times you spend in dangerous areas, the better your team is, roughly speaking. Makes sense. In that match Messi wasn't really bad, it just that his team got so dominated, so outclassed, that he barely had any opportunity to do anything. That's not a terrible performance, unlike Ronaldo vs Bayern 2018 and Liverpool 2018. When you account for time spent in dangerous areas in big, medium or small games, Messi turns out to be a better goalscorer. And i don't need to theorize about that, we've seen that. When was the last time Messi had a lesser role in playmaking and was more of a goalscorer? When Barcelona had Iniesta and Xavi. Prior to 2014, and then you can see the full display of Messi's goalscoring potential: 42 non penalty goals in la liga in 32 matches. The best goalscorer in the history of the game. Unbeatable. Messi's goalscoring potential reaches heights (91 goals in a year) that Cristiano can only dream of. What i love about this video is that it demonstrates that Messi can get dirty. Quite a few ugly goals he scored there. The ones he rarely scores anymore due to his role, the ones he doesn't have in ucl big games. There is more to is but all i am saying that Messi's goalscoring potential is bigger and better than Cristiano's goalscoring potential, therefore Messi is a better goalscorer. I am not sure why that is questionable at all. Now, about Ronaldinho the same can't be said, can it? Ronaldinho is nowhere near as good of a goalscorer as Messi. I am not sure, but i think Ronaldinho had almost no defensive responsiblity. He had freedom to operate wherever he wants, just like 2015-present Messi. I don't see Ronaldinho replicating Messi's output. That's not due to Ronaldinho's playmaking role because Messi is a playmaker himself with a similar free role, it's due to Ronaldinho's lack of ignenuity in front of goal. He misses a bit of that dirtiness and the instinct for goal. Something Cristiano has, and everything that Cristiano lacks in terms of creativity he compensates with goalscoring instinct. I would argue that Cristiano is a better goalscorer than Ronaldinho is playmaker, but even if they were equally good, goalscoring is more important than playmaking. You seem to have trouble with that statement. Again, not sure what is controversial there. If i were to improve myself as a player as fast as possible, the first thing i would have worked on is my ability to get into chances and then my ability to score goals because these two would have had the most impact on my quality.
Ive seen them all for club and international There are 4 goals Zaragoza 09/10 Getafe 06/07 Madrid 10/11 Bilbao 14/15 That are beyond i think CRs skillset But that's it Headers are not pretty/aesthetically pleasing goals? The ones vs Roma 2008,Manchester United 2013 and sampdoria 2019 are iconic and definitely fit the bill Bicycle kicks vs juventus With VAR this is a goal Simple as The torpedo vs porto The weak foot vs Portsmouth 2006 The weak foot vs Seville 2013 Who does this? No one Dribbling goals? Ronaldo once scored 7 in 35 games But you wouldn't know that There is no need me to concoct a Frankenstein version of CR to compare to dinho Every single version of Cristiano from 2007 to 2014 is better than ronaldinho For arguments sake If there was a player who dribbled like Manchester United Cristiano (4 dribbles per game in the champions league) And simultaneously averaged 15 CL goals per season like 13-18 CR That player would be vastly superior to Messi It wouldn't be possible or fair And this thread wouldn't exist Lastly I don't see the argument that Cristiano is a better scorer than dinho is a playmaker its a fact What kind if mental gymnastics does one have to engage in to indulge in this madness Dinho wasn't even the playmaker of his own team!!! That was deco KDBs advanced playmaking stats from the last 2-3 seasons BLOW AWAY dinhos Dinho was a wing forward with a creative licence and great vision He was not a real playmaker (a conductor) At his best Cristiano 14/15 scored 25 goals+8 assists in 14 matches averaging almost 3KP per match With a 9.13 Whoscored average That is the defintion of GOAT level efficiency Im unaware of any playmaking level that can match this level of efficiency @Tropeiro If CR 09/10 with his known athletic,dribbling,set piece and creative qualities had been transported into 2014/15 real Madrid What kind of numbers can you imagine him having What kind of whoscored average Fans like to hypothesize about different scenarios Had R9 not been injured Had baggio not been injured Had van basten not been injured Had dinho been disciplined Had maradona been disciplined Lets entertain the thought that CRs ego has prevented him from maximizing his output Leadleader said if i recall correctly CR was a liability in the midfield after 2010 If he accepted playing closer to goal and leaving midfield duties to others than perhaps he would've actually been a real match for messi We saw a glimpse of this in 2014 when he was nearing the end of his peak That player was a monster and till this day i don't believe he got the credit his form deserved
La Liga 2012/2013 Results without Messi Barcelona 5 vs 0 Mallorca Zaragoza 0 vs 3 Barcelona Barcelona 1 vs 0 Levante Barcelona 2 vs 1 Valladolid Español 0 vs 2 Barcelona Barcelona 4 vs 1 Malaga Barcelona scored 17 Goals in 6 matches, won all matches without Messi in La Liga. OK let's suppose it is true.... how many touches in the box Messi had this season? Was the Barcelona in Dinho's time as strong as Real Madrid or Barcelona 2009-2018? For reference: Ronaldinho 2006/2007 Data of the matches when Messi was on the pitch too (part of 'Messi Project') Messi 2018/2019 Other info Spoiler (Move your mouse to the spoiler area to reveal the content) Show Spoiler Hide Spoiler 0.38 open play assist expected per 90 is nothing bad. Messi touched the ball in the opposite box much more than Dinho, probably Dinho was more a attacking midfielder player and Messi more of a second striker. In the World Cup (or with Argentina in Messi's case) Ronaldinho had more progressive passes (13.6) than Messi in 2014 (5.5), Neymar in 2018 (7.8), Zico in 1982 (8.6), Cruyff in 1974 (11.9), Pelé in 1970 (8.2) or Maradona in 1986 (10.6), Xavi in 2010 (9.3). Progressive passes advance the ball at least 10 yards toward the opponent's goal or into their box. Also 0.5 non-shot expected goals just behind Cruyff, Maradona and Neymar (0.6) among those, but no shorter than Pelé's 1970 (0.5), Xavi (0.5), Messi in 2014 (0.4) or Zico in 1982 (0.3) and better than Maradona 82 and 90 too (0.3). It is controversial because this is not something consensual or scientifically established. It is not 1+1 = 2. Many times a pass, a run or a dribble is more valuable for the team than the final touch imo. We are yet to measure this.
CR would be better in that Real Madrid or more impactful. But and if we transport him to a 2002/2003 Barcelona, what numbers would he have? Let's remind that Real Madrid in 2008-2009 had 78 points in the round 33 in La Liga and that Barcelona, 44. Cristiano Ronaldo arrived in a United that scored 83 points in the EPL 2002/2003. Cristiano Ronaldo in that Barcelona would have to choose a lot more between helping to progress the ball or scoring goals. He would not do both at the same time. Could be, but we have to analyze this. Identify the key matches is the first point. Is KDB really a conductor? I would say Ronaldinho was more responsible to progress the ball via dribbles, runs and pass in relation to his team total than KDB.. also probably more touches in the middle of the pitch per total than De Bruyne. If something Ronaldinho was the midfielder/real conductor here. Do not forget City was way superior to that Barcelona, without De Bruyne in the last season, City had 98 points in the EPL.
as a whole. Watch any season. Ronaldo 2015 all goals vs Messi 2015 all goals... Messi's goals are better. Much less penalties, much less tap ins and most headers are aesthetically not pleasing. I liked this one for example: but they usually suck. and people tend to agree on that one. Messi's goals are pure magic. A lot of chips, precision, dribbling, creativity, determination. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKtLiL7q6_E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AsNsO7x926k Stop being so dramatic. Cristiano didn't invent bicycle kicks and left foot. ----- That's why you can't credit Ronaldo for dribbling, creating and scoring at the same time. You can't be the tap in machine and score all those deflections against Wolfsburg, PSG, etc and do all that stuff in midfield. But you keep talking about that as one player. That Ronaldo does not exist. Tho you can be Messi. average 10 goals in ucl and dribble more than 4 times per game and be twice the playmaker than Cristiano ever was in his United days with worse team than either United or Real.
@carlito86 Beyond Cristiano's skillset: so many more. Essentially any goal in tight space. Cristiano has never had that kind of footwork in tight spaces. Prove me wrong pls.
Homework Galatasary 2013 Almeria 2010 Villarreal 2009 Are his best(of that type)probably Check them I told you 4 And ill make it 5 because i forgot messis goal vs Malaga 2008/09 That was TH14s favourite Messi goal too Your examples are not good I know what im talking about You underrate CRs strengths because you don't even know them to start with Stop these drug fuelled rants please Invent bicycle kicks and weak foot shots If you dont understand what's being said just ask
That Barcelona was great even without Messi which is why Messi could score so many goals and why i used it as an example of Messi's goalscoring potential. I don't get why did you bring that up at all.. I don't know how many touches in the box Messi has had. Barcelona 2010-2017 is mostly better than 2004-2007 Barcelona. My initial reaction is that i strongly agree with that. But you can count off 2008/09 and 2017/18 season because those are not on the same level. I don't understand what i should be seeing in those graphs. --- There are only few truly right ways to shot, but there are many many many ways to pass. It's much more nuanced skill that often goes unused. Imagine this: You are practising two sequences: 1st. Cutting inside and then going for the far post: and 2nd. Cutting inside and going for the diagonal pass: You get 5 times better at both. Which skill will have more impact on your teams performance? The former because you will get much more chances to apply skill from the first sequence than the second. Plus there is always a chance of teammate missing chance. Finishing is more universal skill, therefore more valuable.
so which goal proves what skillset. Hahah you are actually suggesting that Ronaldo could score Messi's 2013 goal vs Athletic. Not in milion years could Ronaldo dribble past 3 players inside 5 meters squared and shot so precisely without any backlift and preperation. You can count in this goals as well into things that Ronaldo could never do: Show me goal where Ronaldo pulls this kind of reflex, touch, quick thinking and finish: (1st goal) Essentially any quick reaction in tight spaces goes beyond Cristiano's ability.
Gosh sexybeast you are intolerable Quick reaction in tight space Valencia 2014 Aston villa 2008 Flooding the thread is NOT needed Ronaldo has scored every type of goal Please just research before you speak
Are you sure? 2008/09: xG difference 2.62 - 0.68 = 1.94 2009/10: xG difference 2.09 - 0.85 = 1.24 2010/11: xG difference: 2.2 - 0.75 = 1.45 2011/12: xG difference: 2.53 - 0.8 = 1.73 Henry and Eto'o weren't joke. They were likely better than someone like Suarez even was for Barcelona. In fact they outscored Messi in La Liga per 90 minutes. Eto'o scored 0.86 per 90, Henry 0,81 and Messi 0.72. Guardiola impact was immediate. A 'superteam' of the past scored way less and the 03/04 Arsenal is likely better or as good as the best Barcelona from Ronaldinho. Post Neymar and Iniesta Barcelona is weaker. But the matches without Messi: Malaga 0 vs 2 Barcelona Levante 5 vs 4 Barcelona Murcia 0 vs 3 Barcelona Barcelona 5 vs 0 Murcia Celta de Vigo 1 vs 1 Barcelona Barcelona 2 vs 0 Inter Inter 1 vs 1 Barcelona Barcelona 5 vs 1 Real Madrid Rayo Vallecano 2 vs 3 Barcelona Huesca 0 vs 0 Barcelona Celta 2 vs 0 Barcelona Cultura Leonesa 0 vs 1 Barcelona Barcelona 4 vs 1 Cultura Leonesa Levante 2 vs 1 Barcelona Sevilla 2 vs 0 Barcelona Barcelona 2 vs 1 Inter Athletic 1 vs 0 Barcelona Barcelona 5 vs 2 Betis Osasuna 2 vs 2 Barcelona Barcelona 5 vs 2 Valencia Getafe 0 vs 2 Barcelona Ibiza 1 vs 2 Barcelona. These are the matches. 13 W, 4 D, 5 L (1.95 points per game), 50 GF (2.27), 26 GA (1.18). 15 MATCHES AWAY, 7 AT HOME. That is not as bad to be honest. Barcelona without Ronaldinho between 2003-2004 - 2005-2006, three seasons as well. Barcelona 2 x 0 Panonios Villlareal 2 x 1 Barcelona Barcelona 0 x 0 Valladolid Malaga 5 x 1 Barcelona Barcelona 1 x 2 Real Madrid Barcelona 5 x 0 Albacete Betis 1 vs 1 Barcelona Shaktar 2 vs 0 Barcelona Racing 0 vs 2 Barcelona Barcelona 2 vs 0 Sevilla Real Sociedad 0 vs 0 Barcelona Gramenet 1 vs 0 Barcelona Udinese 0 vs 2 Barcelona Betis 1 vs 4 Barcelona Cadiz 1 vs 3 Barcelona Barcelona 1 vs 3 Atlético de Madrid Valencia 1 vs 0 Barcelona Malaga 0 vs 0 Barcelona Racing 2 vs 2 Barcelona Barcelona 1 vs 0 Villarreal Sevilla 3 vs 2 Barcelona Athletic 3 vs 1 Barcelona Zamora 1 vs 3 Barcelona Barcelona 6 vs 0 Zamora 10 W, 5 D, 9 L (1.46 points per game), 40 GF (1.66), 28 GA (1.17), 16 MATCHES AWAY, 8 AT HOME. If someone includes data from shots taken and conceded or ball possession the difference could look bigger. Overall is still very likely today's Barcelona is better than whatever pre-Guardiola version of Barcelona, let alone 2008-2017 Barcelona that was a machine.
I guess I am wrong about 2008/09. About 2017/18 I wasn't really refering to it being better or worse to Ronaldinho's Barcelona, but just that it was substantially worse than 2008-17 period. Anyhow, that is too small sample size to conclude anything. And there are many variables that determine outcome of the matches not just whether Ronaldinho or Messi plays. I am not even sure how one would go about comparing them. Also remember, even if today's Barca was slightly better than Ronaldinho's Barca, Messi's statistics are much better. Actually, I am not even sure what you are trying to get from the comparison.
Me being intolerable to you means my point is valid and your beliefs are questioned. First goal vs Valencia doesn't show any of that. It comes from cross. He saw it coming from miles away. Finish is creative and instinctual, but it is about it. The second one is much better, but incomparable to Messi's reactions. One touch finish is infintely less difficult than what Messi does in tight spaces. These goals actually prove the limit of Ronaldo's reaction in tight spaces. he can do one touch, instinctual finish, which is amazing but more than that, no. How in the world one could claim that Ronaldo could score this goal vs Napoli. Messi fell down, lost the track of the ball. Saw it getting away from him and in a milisecond, he stood up, used his body to shield the ball from Koulibaly, makes perfect, slight touch to take control over the ball. Then he finds himself with two defenders right in front of him with no space. He feints to the right, opens up just enough space to shot and with no backlift or any kind of preperation Messi pulls out good enough shot to score sensational goal. All that happened in what, 2 seconds. Messi thrives in chaos in penalty box. That's some talent right there that Cristiano can't ever replicate and that is fine. Messi can't do a lot of things Ronaldo does regularly. So what. It's probably this obsession of yours with Cristiano being a complete footballer and goalscorer. He ain't. He can't do so many things that so many players can. The fact that you had to go to 2008 to give one single example that doesn't even compare to Messi's reaction, proves everything.
It is not like slight better, but much better in fact. The too small sample size actually do a favor to that Barcelona. Messi actually touch the ball in the box almost three times more than a 'forward' oriented version of Ronaldinho (2006-2007) even tho he always was more a 'forward-type' of player than Dinho.
Top 3 performances without goals Manchester city away 2012/13 5 dribbles completed 5 key passes 3 accurate crosses 39 passes 87.2% pass accuracy 63 touches Man of the match https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/6...-League-2012-2013-Manchester-City-Real-Madrid Espanyol away 2010/11 5 dribbles completed 6 key passes 1 tackle 2 interceptions 62 touches 2nd highest rated player https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/434246/LiveStatistics/Spain-LaLiga-2010-2011-Espanyol-Real-Madrid Atletico Madrid home 2014/15 5 completed dribbles 47 completed passes 10 attempted crosses 5 key passes 77 touches Man of the match https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/8...-LaLiga-2014-2015-Real-Madrid-Atletico-Madrid @Tropeiro Getafe 2011/12 https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/523072/LiveStatistics/Spain-LaLiga-2011-2012-Real-Madrid-Getafe 42 passes 5 accurate long balls 2 key passes If you want to see the full array of his attacking qualities A great header effort at 0:45 A beautiful 50 yard pass with his weak foot at 1:28 A bicycle kick that ricochets of the post at 4:00 Sidesteps a defender and wins a penalty 4:45 A technically difficult 40 yard low cross assist with his weak foot at 6:37 On what planet is R9 doing this CR is a considerably superior player than R9 with or without goals Aston villa home 2007/08 Again on what planet was R9 having a tier 1 creative performance as this This was a technically perfect performance I want to see a performance of R9 like this Don't show me a Hattrick vs Valencia 96 Or a solo vs compostela 96 R9 is supposedly a pure technical genius And CR is the athletic dud So show me like for like A performance with all touches where R9 is a playmaker/creative cog of his team vs a reasonably good opponent in any club competition Present it and don't change the goalposts No data A performance with all touches of prime R9 1996-1998 where he is even once the creative cog of his team against reasonably competitive opponent at club level Peak? 2014 C.Ronaldo is a beast If you take whoscored as your gospel there is no getting around this From January 1st till December 31st at league level he reached incredible highs Incredible For the duration of that year he played in the best/most competitive league in the world La liga Barcelona/Madrid/peak atletico Just look what he did to atletico Madrid in the first half of 14/15 without even being on the scoresheet He was MOTM as a world class unplayable winger 47 completed passes,10 attempted crosses,6 Kp In one match vs prime Atletico Madrid This guy was scoring at the exact same time 25 goals+8 assists in 14 matches:9.13 WS rating 75% involvement in his teams goals in the first semester of la liga 14/15 This level is light years away from dinho/R9 Light years That's a real complete attacker who scored at the rate of 2 goals per match
there is no way of directly telling who favors the small sample size. If there was, then there would be no problem of sample size. Even in 38 leagues format you have not big enough sample size to conclude anything. Liverpool is not that much better than City if any. Leicester wasn't the best team in 2016, etc. Where did you get the touches in the penalty box statistic? i am curious
I don’t understand why some people claim CR7 is the better goalscorer when Messi pulled out Wayne Gretzky kinda shit here.
Messi is the same if not more prolific goal scorer everywhere except QF of CL. Even at NT, where it looks like Ronaldo has a big advantage a good portion of his goal advantage is due to the fact he Portugal played a lot of games against very low ranked teams in European qualifying. As has been said repeatedly, Ronaldo's main advantage has been his aerial game.
Type as a near replica? No 2 random guys Youve never heard of scored that exact type of goal Owairan in 1994 Nilmar 2009 That goal is more of an outlier for Messi It was genius I admit And no(before you say he's done it before blah) Technically the ones vs bilbao 2015 and Madrid 11 don't compare to this Messi specialises in specific types of goals C.Ronaldo specialises in most
🇵🇹 Ronaldo's best game for Portugal so far?⚽️ #OTD in 2019, @Cristiano scored three against Switzerland!@selecaoportugal | #NationsLeague pic.twitter.com/DFijqG6nJB— UEFA EURO 2024 (@EURO2024) June 5, 2020 1254642376733126656 is not a valid tweet id 🔥🔥🔥 @Cristiano Ronaldo turns Kevin Mbabu inside out. 😵🌀34 and still dancing past players like it's no big deal! 😳Will he add the #NationsLeague to his honours tomorrow? pic.twitter.com/fLBF1mesxa— Surveys 🇹🇷 (@Surveys_TR) June 9, 2019 3 goals 5 shots 3 completed dribbles 1 GOAT level chance created 32 passes(90% accuracy) https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1...tions-League-A-2018-2019-Portugal-Switzerland One of the most efficient high profile performances of all time. Devastating
Bit of a underrated big match performance that has gone under the radar 2012/13 Copa del Rey final vs Atletico Madrid Final score Atletico Madrid 2-1 real Madrid MOTM performance Contributions 1 GREAT headed goal 5 dribbles(most on the pitch) 45 passes 77 touches 3 key passes(most on the pitch) 3 accurate crosses(most on the pitch) 6 aerial challenges won(most on the pitch) https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/7...del-Rey-2012-2013-Real-Madrid-Atletico-Madrid Was a real winger here(AML) I'm not sure when simeones atletico Madrid suddenly emerged as a big team because the goalposts are often moved In any case there really can't be that much of a difference in facing atletico Madrid in May 2013(part of the 2012/13 season) and August 2013(start of 13/14 when they became a "big team")
Please don't post CR's hat trick in what is akin to a friendly match against Switzerland. Nations League is not a meaningful competition. Show me something from the WC and Euros. Preferably against a great team in the knockout stages. That's where legends are made.