I mention Ronaldinho because he played the major part in Messi's first Champions League win and also set the intro for his career. Starting your career around players like that is a benefit, as evidenced by the titles won. Pedro, Villa.... and Iniesta and Xavi. No chance on Modric being close to Xavi. Xavi's club achievements can take on Modric's, nevermind his NT achievements. I rate Ramos extremely highly. He's just not as talented as the above players mentioned. He's very close though. But, even then, he's just one player. The grand majority of people would take any of the above 4 over Ramos if given the choice, even if I wouldn't.
Just because Modric is inferior to Xavi or Iniesta doesn’t mean he’s not an all time great midfielder. Their difference is pretty minimal IMO ability wise.
"Choose the best player for every position, and you'll end up not with a strong XI, but with 11 strong 1's." It literally doesn't matter who they had when statistic overwhelmingly suggests that they performed bad and that Messi contributed by far the most to his team
Because of injury Messi didn't really have a hand in his 1st CL title. I honestly can't give him that much credit for that campaign. As protagonists, Ronaldo has 5 and Messi has 3. Then again CR7 has 2 CL titles on PKs. In terms of formation, CR7 benefited much more from the tutelage of SAF and tough teammates that toughened him up than Messi with R10. We are talking about individual performance, not sure why you bring NT team achievements into the mix. Ramos has been crucial in getting Madrid 2 CL titles from his offensive contributions. That is pretty unusual.
Also, you’re forgetting how crucial Bale and Ramos was for Real during the CL finals. Without them, Real wouldn’t have won 13-14 CL, 15-16 CL and 17-18 CL. I literally don’t understand why many claim Ronaldo carried Real, when they had one of the best football squad in history in terms of starting 11, depth and reliable youth players. This entire “Xavi-Iniesta carrying Messi” propaganda should stop considering Messi was still the most important player during Pep’s era Barca. It’s as bad as Chelsea fans claiming they were robbed in 09 CL semi finals even though that wasn’t the case in the first leg.
Lionel messi is alot fairer than his fanboys "I know now that I need to enjoy this final much more than before, because I think there are many players who don't have the opportunity to win the Champions League," he told uefa.com. "That's what makes it special, but it's also true that if you want to win it, you have to play and perform during the whole Champions League season. I believe it's a beautiful opportunity to be able to play every game, just as it is throughout the year, but it would be even more special if we could win the final, with me playing in it." https://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsl...--messi-mindful-not-to-let-final-moment-pass/ Unfortunately till this day many claim R9 won 2 world cups Or pele won 3
He was also top scorer/tournament MVP in both(08 and 16) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Club_Footballer_of_the_Year https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Men's_Player_of_the_Year_Award Romario won his only WC on penalties Zico regrets till this day the missed penalty in 86 Hed swap all his state championship medals for a chance to score 1 penalty You can believe me
We are not talking Romario. We are not talking Zico. What does that have have to do with anything ? But Zico scored his PK in the shootout. He missed one in regulation.
Here, I agree. Cristiano Ronaldo scored 1 goal (0 assists) in 5 matches vs Atlético de Madrid and Barcelona that season. He wasn't in the Eurocopa final too.
i am glad we agree on something, but that is not my reasoning. That's not why he shoudlnt ahve won ballon d'Or or the uefa best player.
Ronaldo is the champions league GOAT The best player of the best competition in Europe/world That alone arguably makes him a top 10 all timer His league career The three peat with Manchester United The 4 european golden shoes 2× serie A MVP in 19 and 20 according to who scored The legendary record of 450 league goals scored in Europe's top 5 leagues That definitely makes him a top 10 all timer His record in cup competitions Scored in the 2004 FA cup final Scored in 2 copa del rey finals vs atletico 13 and Barcelona 11 The international record 100 ~ intl goals and one of the top European championship legends with most goals,most assists,most appearances and some of the highest rated individual performances ever Scored a hattrick in world cup aged 33 Carried his team in many qualification rounds for major tournaments That's the stats The magic,creative abilities,longevity We can talk forever 13 consecutive years as a undisputed top 5 player in the world He is a top 5 all timer and ronaldinho is nowhere near that level
I like Ronaldo, but he ain’t winning the CL with Juve considering they don’t have world class midfield to feed him. Unless, they’re willing to sign such players ofc. I have no clue what creative abilities you’re talking about here, but he ain’t the same 2008-14 version of Ronaldo.
Juventus have scored 7 champions league KO goals since CRs arrival All 7 by 1 player That is the dictionary definition of dependence About the rant.... Ronaldinho is in prison/bail/house arrest I don't know Cristiano is still impacting matches at the highest level There is crazy and there is CRAZY If someone thinks dinho Any version,any year,any match can compare to Cristiano He needs his head checked Cris has 130 champions league goals 130 Just take a minute and try to fathom that number Over 50% of that total in is deep KO rounds Dude The 2nd with his weak foot vs Lyon You can say whatever you want but if you are below the age of 50 you have never seen a player who perfected the art of goalscoring like cris @JoCryuff98 C.Ronaldo is a creative player To what degree is an opinion That he is creative is not Its a fact
but how many semi finals Juve has had since CRs arrival? I thought he single handedly wins you ties and competitions, no matter where he plays: United, Real, Portugal, Juve or as benficadude would say, any team in the world, lol. It's kinda hard to advance when you team concedes more than you can create/score, isn't it? He didn't even downgrade much, he went from Real to Juve (the 7 times Serie A winner in a row and 2 ucl finals in 4 years prior) and immediately lost his magical ability to win ucl with whoever. (Sarri is bad tho) Nobody is disputing that overall CR is greater player than Ronaldinho. It is a peak CR vs peak Ronaldinho, so short period of time of few seasons. You are all over the place. Ronaldo has never been United type dribbler and creator and post 2016 type big game goalscorer at the same time. You can't fuse them. Ronaldinho's peak is close, but ultimately player who is a difference maker in front of the goal is better than a player who is not. Which is why Neymar is better than Hazard, Cristiano better than Ronaldinho, etc. Also as you are trying to say, but not quite wording it correctly, Cristiano might have few versions which are better than peak Ronaldinho,.. arguable.
Curious fact, out of those 7 goals, 4 are headers, 2 are PKs, and one with his feet (that great goal yesterday).
Stop being an arrogant idiot. Of course, that's part of it (he didn't played well against big teams in 15/16 season, period) Just as if you were smarter we would have agreed on more things, like Cristiano Ronaldo being a better goalscorer (but not the best player). You set up a totally wrong line of reasoning just to not assume that you made a mistake by assigning a much greater weight to scoring goals (even in a simple tap-in) and not much by influencing matches in other ways (ball progression, chances creation). That is why comparing different roles without analyzing what each palyer has to do is stupid.... and we still don't have the tools to properly analyze it these days (but at least we should do the homework). Homework here means select the key matches of each season, analyze the player statistics in these matches, see the rating of each player according to the media, then eye-test (watching the matches really), in short, everything that was not done in this thread... and not doing simply argument in a box like "Cristiano Ronaldo is better because he scores more goals than Ronaldinho" etc. which can be true and I have assumed this since the beginning, but this argument is just too simplistic. This is not Youtube or Facebook. There is a lot of work and research to do that has not been done here.
Another wrong definition. The best player is not the one who causes the most dependence or even scores more goals or makes the most assists. The best player is the one who has the most positive impact in terms of improving the chances of his team scoring goals and decreasing the chances of his team conceding goals. Actually Neymar is very arguably better than Hazard because not he score more goals or makes more assists than the belgian, but because he also makes all the hard work Hazard is credited (ball progression) and because we are seeing how Barcelona and Chelsea reacted to the departure of these players. The best Hazard is simply more replaceable than the best Neymar. PD: Juventus is not improving with Cristiano Ronaldo as focal point of the team.
You could argue Juventus have regressed with Ronaldo. Getting knocked out by Ajax and now Lyon (no discredit to that Ajax team) ... but they used be KOed by Barca, Madrid ... regardless of only him scoring in KO rounds. However, the team gets a year older and things change so it's not easy making that assumption. doesn't help that they didn't have dybala nor d.Costa that could have tipped the scales. Those are always variables to consider. But getting KOed by Lyon is frankly a bit embarassing.
It is not only in the UCL, but also in the domestic tournaments and in league as well. It may be a good number of factors, but all of the results together doesn't seem like a good sign.
He might have squeezed one more CL at Madrid. Ego got the best of him. Then again Liverpool were the team last season.
@Tropeiro Ill ask you here instead of the other thread Cristiano is a better goalscorer than Messi you claim You referenced his repertoire of finishing abilities (aerial ability,weak foot,off the ball movement etc) as reasons for his superiority You also referenced his record in big game KO game record So why then is R9 greater as van basten The exact same argument you used in favour of Cristiano being a better scorer than messi can be used in favour of MVB Van basten has a superior record to R9 in KO rounds of the European cup Is very arguably a more complete scorer(aerial ability,weak foot,penalty,set piece) And if van basten is a better goalscorer than R9 that is like saying van basten is a better player than R9 Ive never heard you describe either one of van basten or R9 as complete attackers They were strikers And if it can be proven van basten was better as R9 in his greatest strength/primary function Than van basten at club level should >R9 at club level After that we can talk about how much importance is attached to international career The basis of any discussion should be that van basten>R9 at club level For one van basten does have 5 world class club seasons 1986/87 1988/89 1989/90 1991/92 There is a half season in 1992/93 And a European golden shoe in 1983/84 R9 for one reason or another doesn't have body of work at club level to compare to van basten Doesn't have his titles Doesn't have his big game record International career is a separate arena with different variables
What I did was to identify the key games (vs comparable teams according to Elo rating, the best way I find to identify these games) and then point out the statistics of those players in those games. In those games Cristiano Ronaldo scored more non-pk goals than Messi. I did it, in part, for R9, in the seasons he qualify or his 5 best seasons in Europe (excluding his time at PSV or Brazil) but I still haven't done it for Van Basten. I'm not sure Van Basten scored more goals than R9 in this method. Also there are a lot of obscure points in addition that we cannot analyze before (metrics as expected goals) and here we take also the context. Milan were a much more structured/better team than all the teams R9 played, likely he had a superior expected goal or asists (for playing in better teams). In the case in the question, I said that it is very possible that one player superior athleticism and dribbling ability could make him a superior goalscorer or at least match the aerial superiority of another by reaching goalscoring positions faster than the other and creating more shots for himself via dribbling. Football is a team sport btw. Btw, Btw, [...] his goals added has always come overwhelmingly from receiving—he's incredible at getting on the end of passes into the box. https://nograssintheclouds.substack.com/p/meet-the-model-thats-redefining-value