How many 10s in champions league KO stages? That's a discussion for another time Look like i said stats,numbers and raw data are nice to help build a picture of the players level Cruyff vs Sweden 74 on the surface 'looked' like Maradona vs England 86 1 - Johan Cruyff's performance against Sweden in 1974 World Cup. Operation. pic.twitter.com/0hqNFHEvIR— OptaCan (@OptaCan) June 19, 2017 Yet Not every dribble is the same Neither is every pass the same Neither is every stage Neither is every opponent You weigh that against the underwhelming level of diegos teammates(which is an established fact) and maradona for those few games as far as Im concerned has no equal No amount of propaganda/revisionism can change that Maradona became a football immortal after those matches His signature performances were in 2 of the 3 biggest matches a player participates in his career You can understand why i find it crazy when you constantly seek to equate Ronaldinho with this guy And I don't mean that in a demeaning way either It is genuinely laughable that Ronaldinho at his best could ever conceivably be comparable to Maradona at his very best Throw Cristiano under the bus too I don't care No one is comparable to Diego maradona at his best during those few days Not even Messi in a Barcelona shirt It hurts 'sexy'beast to say this He cannot concede
That is because Sexybeast is being a lazy individual and a convenient poster, he will troll when he is a totally ignorant about the things, he will say unjustifiable things and unjustifiable definitions to protect his convictions, and if nothing results, he goes all for meaningless criticism or questions (with no suggestions at all since he has none probably), for cheap offenses (frustrated and angry in the process) and, definitely, he will add few to no value to the discussion... so yes, he will die with and for Messi (funny how most Messi hardcore fans are from outside of Argentina btw lol). But it is he seems to be your typical fanboy, your typical cheeky and casual fanboy that you often find in the comment section of Youtube, he's that guy who crossed the border, nothing more. He will deny all the evidence you present to him, now I bet he will criticize the metric of whoscored and even doubt if the data is actually reliable... of course without presenting zero media notes, data, comparisons, nothing. All very lazy and superficial. And like you said: Yet Not every dribble is the same Neither is every pass the same Neither is every stage Neither is every opponent Cristiano header vs Chelsea 2008 is much better than Messi's header vs United, better jump, better movement, the area was crowded, Cech had no chance at all.. now Messi was totally free in the area, before and after the cross and Messi header in that final was an outlier in his carrer and had a certain surprise element not only for United's defense, but also for Van Der Sar. Cristiano Ronaldo has shown this superiority several times against high-level teams after that. Cristiano Ronaldo's goals in the UCL 16/17 are of very quality as well (with or without deflection). If we compare peak Cristiano Ronaldo in terms of exceed the expected goals (2006-2007 until 2009-2010) so things are different. The graphic was lazy produced by the ESPN(?), but I saw an Opta chart about expected goals and goals scored (data only from Real Madrid) and it was pretty much looked the same, even if produced correctly. So the data of this graphic is from OPTA. So basically he had ~41 expected goals from his shots and 77 non-PK goals scored in 119.4 (x 90 minutes) matches. That is four seasons league data (not 3 samples from Messi's UCL finals) Also not all stage are the same, generally... 1/16 round << 1/2 and 1/4 KO rounds.
The England and Belgium’86 games had various political/provocative preludes behind the scenes that simply Messi was never stacked up against in the NT. The England game had with the Falkland’s War its own narrative. Had England won on the pitch, as they had done on the island in 1982, would have rubbed even more dirt into Argentina’s nationalistic wounds. The fact that Argentina won, at least in a global sport, and with the two most famous goals included, brought some type of honorable Pyrrhic victory, at least denying England a possible podium finish at the world’s greatest stage. And if Maradona had cheated with the fisted goal, England, on Margaret Thatcher’s orders, had illegally sunk Argentina’s fleet of the General Belgrano on neutral waters, which gave the British naval supremacy on the shores. The second goal was simply immortal, humiliating every player in his wake, sending England packing back to London with the VCR era recording every movement at England’s expense for eternity. The Argentinian win on the football pitch, surely must have hit home to the national pride of Margaret Thatcher and all of England. Had Argentina lost, it is highly probable that England would have met West Germany in the finals and another humiliation at Argentina would have been achieved. Can one imagine Argentina going back home with another defeat to England ? The people would never forgive them. The Belgian game had its own spicy ingredients, with a personal dual between goalkeeper Jean Marie Pfaff calling out Diego before the match. He dared him to beat him, saying things like Diego is a chump and will lose. But Maradona was a mastermind manipulator through the media prior to big games and said he’d see him on the field and let his game do the talking. He gave Jean Marie Pfaff a lesson to never forget and said “take them 2 goals to your retirement” and denied him a possible World Cup final appearance.
so that's all you are basing this on? This list of games? I did my analysis on semi finals after they turned 21: *G=goal, A=assist, P=pre-assist, G(p)=penalty goal, x2=multiplier, italics=didn't play RONALDO: 2006/07: Manu 3-2 Milan - G Milan 3-0 ManU - / 2007/08: Barca 0-1 ManU - / ManU 0-0 Barca - / 2008/09: ManU 1-0 Arsenal - / Arsenal 1-3 ManU - Gx2, A 2010/11: Real 0-2 Barca - / Barca 1-1 Real - / 2011/12: Bayern 2-1 Real - A Real 2-1 Bayern - G(p), G 2012/13: Dortmund 4-1 Real - G Real 2-0 Dortmund - / 2013/14: Real 1-0 Bayern - P Bayern 0-4 Real - Gx2 2014/15: Juve 2-1 Real - G Real 1-1 Juve - G(p) 2015/16: City 0-0 Real Real 1-0 City - / 2016/17: Real 3-0 Atleti - Gx3 Atleti 2-1 Real - / 2017/18: Bayern 1-2 Real - / Real 2-2 Bayern - / Manchester United + Real Madrid: Wins=11 Draws=5 Loses=6 Matches=22 Goals for=31 Goals against=24 Ronaldo: Matches=21 Goals=13 (2 pens) Assists=2 Pre-assists=1 Goal involvment= 52% GAP per match=0,762 *goal involvment is defined as goals + assists + pre-assists divided by number of goals a team scored *GAP per match is goals + assists + pre-assists per number of matches player played. MESSI since turning 21: 2008/09: Barca 0-0 Chelsea - / Chelsea 1-1 Barca - A 2009/10: Inter 3-1 Barca - / Barca 1-0 Inter - P 2010/11: Real 0-2 Barca - Gx2 Barca 1-1 Real - / 2011/12: Chelsea 1-0 Barca - / Barca 2-2 Chelsea - A 2012/13: Bayern 4-0 Barca - / Barca 0-3 Bayern 2014/15: Barca 3-0 Bayern - Gx2, A Bayern 3-2 Barca - Px2 2018/19: Barca 3-0 Liverpool - Gx2 Liverpool 4-0 Barca - / Barcelona: Wins=4 Draws=4 Loses=6 Matches=14 Goals for=16 Goals against=22 Messi: Matches=13 Goals=4 Assists=3 Pre-assists=3 Goal involvment=63% GAP per match=0,769 One very significant fact emerges from this statistic and that is that Real was much more successful in semi finals which would make things easier for a goalscorer to score, wouldn't you agree? Now you can argue they were more successful because of that goalscorer, but that isn't the case. That's what rest of the statistics suggest. Messi was involved in more goals for Barcelona than Ronaldo for ManU and Real. And that's a fact. It is also a fact that Barcelona has conceded way more goals than Real in semis, which also suggests that Barcelona hasn't played very well therefore, at times, things were additionally more difficult for Messi. Messi does have his share of misses and in an ideal world he could have done better against Chelsea 2012, Liverpool 2019 and maybe few more, but Messi ain't perfect. But neither is Cristiano, who was carried by his team successfully on so many ocassions, the most notable Bayern 2018. You can also argue that Ronaldo's teammates carried him in 2017 against Atleti the way that Messi's teammates couldn't against Liverpool. It all adds up to this confirmation biased, misleading, statistics-driven theory that somehow Cristiano is much better in KO phase than Messi, which simply isn't the case. In terms of pure goalscoring, i will repeat again, sure if you look only at tough games with unpredictable service, Ronaldo scores more because his goalscoring qualities allow him that (heading, poaching). He is much more of a "hit or miss" kind of goalscorer, but the exact that qualty doesn't allow him to be a consistent goalscorer so he might have big highs, but he has terrible lows, which Messi doesn't. Messi's goalscoring fluctuates much less and it is proportional to the quality of defense he is facing and team he plays for. Now if you only look at Ronaldo's highs in big games, you will fall into survivorship bias. Overall, when both Ronaldo and Messi are at their comfortable best with the best kind of service suited to them, Messi is a better goalscorer because if you put a random team in front of, let's say, 2011 Barcelona team, Messi would be more likely to score than Ronaldo with 2012 Real Madrid. Now, you can define it the other way which would make Ronaldo a better goalscorer, that's fine.
The 16/17 CL season really set Ronaldo apart in CL KO round goal scoring. Specifically the Bayern / Atletico ties. There was a bit of a switch in how he played that season in terms of position. He played closer to the goal. You notice basically all his goals were in the box getting service. It did show his versatility in playing a different role. At the same time Messi started being relied more and more for play making getting less clear scoring chances specially in the tougher games. Ronaldo does the advantage with his aerial game and also better at getting on the end of chances playing more as a striker. The two footed thing I don't think has given him that much of an advantage.
I managed to ******** up statistics. It is even more impressive in the Messi's case: Matches=13 Goals=6 Assists=3 Pre-assists=3 Goal involvment=75% GAP per match=0,923 Comapred to Ronaldo's: Matches=21 Goals=13 (2 pens) Assists=2 Pre-assists=1 Goal involvment= 52% GAP per match=0,762 But okay. Let's keep this narrative that Ronaldo destroys Messi in KO phases of ucl. Bar quarter finals, Messi seems to be more impressive in every stage, just that his team has sucked and is dependent on his magic. Since both turned 21. Barcelona scored only 4 goals in semis without Messi's involvment. On the other hand, United and Real scored 15 without Ronaldo's involvment.
yeah, the tie agianst Bayern in which he scored 2 offside goals and one empty net, if i am not mistaken. He scored two proper goals in those two games. Nothing unheard of really. I see it as nothing but exception to the rule. The sample size of 3 matches.
It was 3 proper goals . Two offsides one of which was a tap in and another which he also trapped the ball with his arm.
The fact said Ronaldo scored 10 goals in 5 matches from the QF to final rounds against bayern,atletico and juventus 2 proper goals 2 goals+1 empty net Barcelona fans can drown themselves in the details Since 1955 (the beginning of the European cup) Nobody did that The reason united /Madrid got to so many SFs is Ronaldo Against Roma 06/07 (2 goals +1 assist+3 pre assists and devastating all round play) Against Roma 07/08 one of the all time headers in history Against Porto 08/09 a top ten goal in champions league history Against Apoel 2011/12 a brilliant backheel pass/pre assist to release Marcelo to assist benzema for the tapin winner And a better FK than Messi scored in his life Against Manchester United 12/13 A header that Messi could never score Against Dortmund The winner of the 3-2 aggregate tie See how poor real Madrid was without Ronaldo in QF second round away at Dortmund The clearest evidence in my mind of real Madrids reliance The threat/presence of Ronaldo releases other players When he is isnt scoring he is a magnet attracting other defenders to him thereby creating space for the likes of benzema/bale to score The same again against schalke 14/15 Carried Wolfsburg 15/16 Bayern 16/17 Juventus 17/18 Ajax 18/19 All crucial interventions that led to those 13 SF goals 13 is better than 4 13 will always be better than 4 You can't put lipstick on a pig The champions league biggest matches is not what defines Messis legacy Its his la liga career Ronaldos champions league KO stage love affair started at Manchester United NOT at real Madrid This myth that he morphed into a some big game champions league player at 31 years old Is just that A myth Out of 15 champions league goals for Manchester United 11 came in the KO stages 11 KO stage goals in actually 3 seasons as a 21-24 year old midfielder/WF When he was not scoring he was peppering the GK with shots from all manner of distances When he was not doing that he was a wing dribbling menace When he Wasnt doing that he was crossing from the wing Not a normal player The FK vs arsenal The goal vs Porto Header vs Roma Counter attack vs arsenal The almost wonder goal vs arsenal in the 08/09 SF first leg The 8 dribbles completed +fantastic header vs Chelsea 07/08 (creating chances via crossing,wing wizardry And even some neat throughballes which he was not known for) He was that kind of rare player What's next Ronaldo wasn't really that good in KO stages??? If he is questionable/wasnt that good in KO rounds Then NO ONE IS No one was And no one will be The greatest stat of his career Better than the fastest to this Fastest to that,most hattricks record etc....... 75 - Cristiano Ronaldo has been directly involved in 75 goals in 77 Champions League knockout appearances (61 goals, 14 assists). Phenom. pic.twitter.com/NzHcWtj9ex— OptaJoe (@OptaJoe) March 12, 2019 That is the defining statistic He is the defining big game club player of his generation Of his generation and since Pele (it was a different time and I'll leave it as that) Since Manchester United he was that player who made his name in those types of matches His header to win the QF vs Roma is a career defining moment for nearly any other player of this era A magnificent goal They are still talking about van bastens header vs Madrid till this day How many such moments has Cristiano had like that How many? It's like people suffer from collective amnesia when CR is the player in question Those FKs vs Apoel,sporting lisbon,arsenal,Marseille where he destroyed steven Mandana (4× ligue 1 GK of the year) Are iconic But Just another day in the champions league career of CR Those counter attacks Vs Ajax 2011 and arsenal 2009 are some of the best ever That long shot vs Porto 09 was as great if not greater(factoring context) than koeman vs Porto 1994 The solo vs galatasary/schalke 2014 were very high quality The bicycle vs Juventus 2018 Many of those were done on BIG stages Ronaldos GOAT repertoire of finishing has been displayed in the deep rounds vs the best opponents/GKs of his era That's the fact Ray winstone/sexybeast and Celito can't accept Celito who is having internal conflict Everytime Brazil face Argentina and wears a Argentina shirt under the Brazil one Typical Celito emerging from the abyss to to latch onto anti Cristiano comments Disappointed
Let's start here . Please don't say Madrid got to SF of CL because of Ronaldo vs APOEL. They could beat APOEL without Ronaldo. But in general, yes, he was a major reason in Madrid's CL success in the last decade. The FK was vs Liverpool was just as good. ... or at least not that far off. Who cares ? It's one free kick. I have already stated his heading ability is fantastic. What else do you want me to say ? That's a good story, but it doesn't hold water. Madrid have lost plenty of away and some home legs with Ronaldo. Borussia away with him ... Juventus at home ... Bayern. That's not to say they were better with him. Mid table team ... enough said. I won't address the rest in detail but if you cared to pay attention, I actually praised Ronaldo's scoring prowess. I just agreed 2 of those 5 goals were a bit BS goals. A bit like the 2 goals vs Bayern in 13/14 SF were absolutely inconsequential as the tie was decided. It's like him celebrating the PK that year in the final as if it was the winner when he did jack shit in the Final where the heroes were Ramos and Bale. Ronaldo has been a beast in QF an SF in terms of scoring. Messi definitely can't compare. Funny thing is that in the Final Messi has been pretty crucial in all 3 finals (even without scoring vs Juve his shot parried by Buffon after a great run) and Ronaldo was crucial in 2 of 6 finals (1 out of 4 for Madrid). In the rest for Madrid he was a passenger. In the 2nd final vs Barca at ManU he played well at the start of the match.
Absurd Ronaldo created the 1-0 goal vs Bayern 2014 He scored 4th and 5th in a 5-0 aggregate win Only In hindsight were they inconsequential Bayern were 3-0 down with 70 minutes on the clock Lewandowski can score 5 goals in 10 minutes Liverpool can score 3 goals vs Milan 2005 in 6 miniutes There's nothing unprecedented about a whole team overturning a 3-0 aggregate deficit with 70 minutes on the clock The fact they didn't was because Ronaldo ensured that they wouldn't That's his credit This is not an 11-0 aggregate score and he scored the 11th vs Malta Its a champions league Semi final against the German champions Bayern Munich The match is not over 3-0 down with 70 minutes on the clock if your name is bayern Munich Those goals are full credit to Ronaldo Who gives a Damn how he celebrates about a penalty It was his 17th champions league goal of the season It was Madrids long awaited 10th European cup The emotions of it must've of gotten to him It was the winner Fun fact Penalties can actually be decisive Ronaldo after scoring the winning penalty in a champions league final should calmly walk to Karim bentzema, gareth bale,Ramos and say "Hey guys thank you for scoring a combined total of 20~ CL KO goals in your career Even though I carried you to those finals the Barcelona fans just won't get of my back unless I give you guys my medals and accolades. you can celebrate our champions league triumph wildly,clapping,jumping,screaming while I just sit on the pitch with my head in my hands crying about how lucky I am to have karim bentzema " Delusions all over
Bayern would would have needed to score 5 goals ... while leaving themselves exposed at the back. That's how Ronaldo's 1st goal game. C'mon man ... be serious. Slim chance to none they were coming back. The tie was over. I am talking about the PK in the 13/14 final. That wasn't the winner. Game was 3 x 1 in ET and in the dying minutes.
How he celebrates a penalty kick is a story for newspaper to sell You're just a consumer of it How can someone hate/dislike someone for how they celebrate a penalty WHO CARES Its irrelevant If CR came our in the press and said" my 4-1 penalty was the decisive goal" That's different You are creating offence out of nothing Why would you be offended at how he celebrates a penalty? Just for your info Ronaldo has not celebrated some of the most fantastic goals of his career Unfortunately you are part of the machinery that nit picks at every detail of his career Seeking things out to manipulate and twist to portray him in a negative light
Celito just give a rep for this lowgrade,disingenuous post Misrepresenting my argument because you cannot address it Singlehandedly Who said it? Ronaldo is demonstrably superior to Messi in QFs Really Vastly
The hate It's not healthy Hate someone for good reasons Or preferable for none if you can avoid it The complete irrelevance of how someone celebrates a penalty It has no relevance What kind of maths is this After benzema/Ramos goals bayern were 3-0 down but would have to score 5 goals to win Just read this again Scoring 4 times with 70 miniutes on the clock is not improbable So no they weren't inconsequential Maybe with the benefit of hindsight and if you insist important goals are only certain types of goals(ie open play ones etc) Scored at specific times against certain opponents etc Is a 3-0 goal stat padding 4-0 5-0 6-0 Who writes the rules I don't know And neither do you You just parrot them But in game time/reality were they important? Yes
you are subtly mixing absolute nonsense with obviously stellar moments of Cristiano's career that nobody disputes. Quite frankly i don't know who and how much is better in quarter finals. I've never done thorough analysis and i won't because it would take some time, but i literally just analysed semi finals and finals in both of which Messi has been more impactful in his career. But pardon me, I didn't know that quarter finals are new finals and the most important thing ever with the biggest pressure in history of humankind. Btw, Messi has 6 goals in semi finals, not 4. That's 6/13= 0,462. Ronaldo has 11 nonpenalty goals in 21 matches= 0,524 So even in this very crude way of analysing goals, Ronaldo' doesn't have any significant edge in semi finals.
Meant to type 4 goals. Yeah. Still slim chances. Tie was over. I don't hate Ronaldo. Hate is a strong word.
There is no implication of that But he was decisive Any team that gets to a champions league QF gets there on virtue alone How much credit Ronaldo deserves is a separate discussion The implication of your statement But Madrid would've won without him Is meaningless Argentina without Messi beat Germany 4-0 Just a few months after they lost to Germany 1-0 with Messi The hypocrisy is You will say now that context matters Germany in a world cup context is completely different from Germany in a 'meaningless' Friendly The likelihood is Apoel would never go so far in the champions league again especially with the gulf widening with europes top teams( vs the rest ) You forget football is human sport and not one played on paper Those Apoel players in a champions league context Is not the same as them in a random fixture in the Cypriot league Its not the same Any CL QF opponent is a worthy one Now Is it The same as doing it against world-class defenders/keepers Nope(even though big teams can at Times become complacent and lose against smaller fish) Which is why You should always respect your opponent Unfortunately with Ronaldo in your mind its He was absolutely fantastic (rare btw In your opinion) Or he was absolutely shit There is no middle ground Can you say Ronaldo was fantastic against Apoel in the QF even though it's arguably not the same as doing it vs other opponents You can't say it Your hatred blinkers won't allow you
You preset that list of QF appearances with the argument that Ronaldo was the reason Madrid got to SFs. It's a logical assumption. Sorry but there have been some pretty average teams that have made it to QFs. I don't buy that argument.