Coronavirus, Nationwide Arena Deal and everything else is the Crew's Fault

Discussion in 'Columbus Crew SC' started by DRWCrew, Mar 10, 2020.

  1. Timon19

    Timon19 Member+

    Jun 2, 2007
    Akron, OH
    You aren't familiar with the 10th Amendment, eh? Don't worry, pretty much no one else is, least of all today's politicians.

    This needs to stop. This really needs to stop. That partial quote came from one of the worst Supreme Court decisions in the history of the Supreme Court, and it was uttered as an analogy, trying to equate speaking out against conscription into WWI with falsely shouting "fire" and causing a panic (falsely is always, always, always omitted, when it is, in fact, the most important bit of the whole thing, as is the ending phrase). This putrescent opinion was used to justify lower court decisions upholding the prosecution of Charles Schenck and Elizabeth Baer under the Espionage act of 1917. It is in every way a piece of shitty jurisprudence and yet somehow manages to justify all sorts of bullshit regarding the First Amendment and prior restraint. STOP USING IT. It's terrible and infantile and Oliver Wendell Holmes ought to be burning in hell for all eternity for delivering it.
     
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  2. KCbus

    KCbus Moderator
    Staff Member

    United States
    Nov 26, 2000
    Reynoldsburg, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No, it's health code.

    Are we as soccer fans being persecuted?
     
  3. KCbus

    KCbus Moderator
    Staff Member

    United States
    Nov 26, 2000
    Reynoldsburg, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    @Timon19 , wouldn't the 10th Amendment mean that the states can impose restrictions for reasons of health and safety?
     
  4. KCbus

    KCbus Moderator
    Staff Member

    United States
    Nov 26, 2000
    Reynoldsburg, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I gotta say... I love the fact that so many people are using the Constitution as an excuse to blow off common sense.

    If Jesus came back down to earth, and saw that millions of people were insisting on mass gatherings in his name based on a book written two thousand years ago, he'd be the first to say... "what the f*** is wrong with you people?"
     
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  5. speedye1

    speedye1 Member

    Dec 31, 2002
    Just be glad you will never likely see real religious persecution.
     
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  6. KCbus

    KCbus Moderator
    Staff Member

    United States
    Nov 26, 2000
    Reynoldsburg, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And even if this WAS persecution -- which it's not, because religious groups aren't getting singled out; they're getting tossed into the same mess that everyone else has been -- I'd be a lot more likely to feel sorry for them if they hadn't spent so much time persecuting on BEHALF of religion.

    The hardcore religious people are losing their minds right now for the exact same reason many of the "I refuse to wear a mask people because MUH RIGHTS" people are: Groups who have had their way their entire lives don't understand the concept of sacrifice.
     
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  7. DGA57v2

    DGA57v2 Member

    Columbus Crew
    United States
    Apr 1, 2019
    I'm pretty sure no one is persecuting Christians. They closed their regular houses of worship because of the mass number they hold. They didn't tell them not to do these:
    • Hold services. Just not in person but most religions held services via streaming options.
    • Gather. Just not in the high numbers but you could still meet in small groups, call others, etc.
    • Pray. Don't recall that being taken down in the health directives.
    I always like how people refer to the "religion" piece in the Constitution and make it about Christianity. I know that Bill went to a new low here calling a respected doctor a[MOD EDIT] for his perceived attack on religion (read Christianity). He says the religious rights are granted in the Constitution so if I'm a believer of Santeria and decide that I should be able to sacrifice chicken on the corner of Broad and High Street in Columbus in the middle of the work day, then I should be able to point the cops to the Constitution while asking them to hold traffic for me, right? What a bunch of baloney.

    Christians have faced real persecutions in different times and places and have always found a way to keep their religious faith active. If a health directive was the one thing that could have stopped it, then the Romans really missed out big time on cutting it off at it's infancy.
     
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  8. hardhead

    hardhead Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 19, 2008
    NEO
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    I'm sure that DeWine and Acton have said since the very beginning of this that churches are exempt from the state orders. Just last week someone asked about churches in a press conference and DeWine reiterated that churches can be open, but urged them to consider the safety of congregants. I should know... I'm on the staff parish relations committee at my church.

    Really unsure what Bill is going on about. I think he likes to spew hate because he feels like he's right..before looking at the facts. Calling a [MOD EDIT] state leader a [MOD EDIT] for something she didn't actually do is...pretty awful by any measure.


    https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-ta...emptions-to-covid-19-social-distancing-rules/
     
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  9. puttputtfc

    puttputtfc Member+

    Sep 7, 1999
    Depends on your opinion of Garber. I do believe Alexi Lalas counts as cruel and unusual punishment.
     
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  10. LaMacchia

    LaMacchia Member+

    Jul 12, 2008
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I just want someone to show me were DeWine and/or Acton said that religion cannot be practiced, because that would be the constitutional violation all of the Bible-thumpers are looking for. I'll wait.

    Religious leaders were encouraged to not hold large gatherings for the time being in order to slow the spread and protect their members - many of which are in high-risk categories - from unnecessary exposure. Some religious leaders followed this advice, others did not. Some law enforcement agencies overstepped their role in the government's recommendation, others did not. But the bottom line is that no one was asked, told, or mandated to stop practicing their religion or to shirk their beliefs.

    But if we were to ask a Fundamentalist Christian they will absolutely look you in the eye and tell you that the government is closing churches because Christianity is under attack in America, and that Coronavirus is just one more excuse being used by the liberal, socialist Democrats to infringe upon their God-given Constitutional right to worship.

    But it's odd... we don't hear the same from any other religions who have also been having services over Zoom, do we?
     
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  11. puttputtfc

    puttputtfc Member+

    Sep 7, 1999
    I'll take the under. My religious neighbor that I consider fundamental summed it up best. She basically said folks are free to gather but shouldn't act like morons. I wonder how much of this is a real crisis as opposed to a click bait crisis. I should drink more gin.
     
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  12. Timon19

    Timon19 Member+

    Jun 2, 2007
    Akron, OH
    That's a deft repositioning of the goalposts, but the general police power that you are referencing does have qualifiers and limits, to wit: "States have the power to compel obedience to these laws through whatever measures they see fit, provided these measures do not infringe upon any of the rights protected by the United States Constitution or their own state constitutions and are not unreasonably arbitrary or oppressive. Methods of enforcement can include legal sanctions, physical means, and other forms of coercion and inducement. Controversies over the exercise of state police power can arise when exercise by state authorities conflicts with individual rights and freedoms."

    The 10th as written (and rendered a dead letter by all sorts of shit): "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

    Two important bits: the middle parenthetical phrase, and the very end clause.
     
  13. Timon19

    Timon19 Member+

    Jun 2, 2007
    Akron, OH
    Also, the appeal to "common sense"...everyone believes that their version of sense is "common sense", whether or not that sense is widely-held. It's a useless appeal to an arbitrary and ephemeral notion of correctness that is highly situational and personal in practice. Basically the opposite of "common".

    Note that I am not in any way suggesting that ther are true violations of the 1st Amendment at playuh here.
     
  14. Ueberjames

    Ueberjames Member

    Columbus Crew
    Mar 28, 2009
    Stow, Ohio
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I say click bait. At least in Ohio, my understanding is that there has never been a ban on church services, but merely a recommendation that religious institutions follow guidelines regarding limits on mass gatherings in order to protect their members from the spread of disease. A recommendation that most religious institutions in the state have chosen to follow doesn't raise any constitutional issues. I've heard the Solid Rock Church down near Cincinnati (of Touchdown Jesus fame) has been holding services this whole time and no one has sent in law enforcement to shut it down. When my local parish announced it was suspending church services, it was based on a decision coming from a conference of Catholic bishops, not by state order.
     
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  15. stanger

    stanger BigSoccer Supporter

    Nov 29, 2008
    Columbus
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Solid Rock was the only me where the woman driving out stated she was safe because she was bathed in Jesus’ blood.

    That woman is the only person I actively wanted to get covid.
     
  16. LaMacchia

    LaMacchia Member+

    Jul 12, 2008
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Always drink more gin.

    I don't think I'll ever forget that, and it is exactly the type of reaction that makes rational, Bible-reading, science-believing Christians pull our hair out.
     
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  17. Bill Archer

    Bill Archer BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 19, 2002
    Washington, NC
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    With all due respect sir, what a load of bull pucky.

    First of all, you don't get to decide what form "worship" can take, what is and isn't "spiritual", how any individual in a free society exercises their right to worship as they see fit and you sure as hell don't get to define freedom of religion.

    (And please don't give me that lame "yell fire in a crowded theater" thing; it has precisely zero relevance in this context)

    Secondly, since it's all about the science, show me where the science says that a group of people observing appropriate personal safety measures in a church sanctuary is at risk of causing mass casualties.

    Third, Amy Acton has exactly zero authority to decide when and under what circumstances a citizens right to attend a worship service may be suspended.

    The only authority she claims stems from an edict from 1908 created during a tuberculosis panic.

    Judge Lucci earlier this week:

    (Acton) "has no statutory authority to close...businesses, including the plaintiffs' gyms." She "has acted in an impermissibly arbitrary, and oppressive manner and without any procedural safeguards."

    The Ohio legislature, which you may have heard is an elected representative body, is trying to stop her reign of totalitarianism.

    Judge Lucci decried the fact that that "one unelected individual could exercise such unfettered power to force everyone to obey impermissibly oppressive, vague, arbitrary and unreasonable rules that the director devised and revised, and modified and reversed, whenever and as she pleases, without any legislative guidance."

    "The public (is) left with feelings that their government is not accountable to them,"

    This isn't science. Feel free to say that a bunch of people sitting two meters apart wearing masks risks the piling up of dead bodies like cordwood all you want, but its nothing but ridiculous hysteria and it's causing irreparable societal damage based on very scant to non-existent evidence.
     
  18. Bill Archer

    Bill Archer BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 19, 2002
    Washington, NC
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  19. KCbus

    KCbus Moderator
    Staff Member

    United States
    Nov 26, 2000
    Reynoldsburg, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I've got no problem with people going to church IF they can comply with said measures.

    You got a PHD on your resume to back that up? Because if you don't, I'd rather listen to doctors than you.
     
  20. Timon19

    Timon19 Member+

    Jun 2, 2007
    Akron, OH
    Credentialism is the ugly half-brother of Scientism.
     
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  21. speedye1

    speedye1 Member

    Dec 31, 2002
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  22. KCbus

    KCbus Moderator
    Staff Member

    United States
    Nov 26, 2000
    Reynoldsburg, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Bullshit.

    Of course, you can find people without credentials on a subject who are smart. And you can find people with them who are stupid. But to act like they don't matter is shockingly ignorant.

    In one corner: Doctors and scientists who study this shit, and think staying away from each other helps slow the spread of a contagious virus. In the other corner: Internet soccer fan.

    If you want to think that's a fair fight, that's your problem.
     
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  23. Timon19

    Timon19 Member+

    Jun 2, 2007
    Akron, OH
    You have missed the point. As anticipated.
     
  24. KCbus

    KCbus Moderator
    Staff Member

    United States
    Nov 26, 2000
    Reynoldsburg, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You have no point.
     

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