Corner kick: was this ball in play?

Discussion in 'Referee' started by bungadiri, Sep 13, 2003.

  1. bungadiri

    bungadiri Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jan 25, 2002
    Acnestia
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This was new to me, but then I don't pretend to be steeped in the lore of the game. Is this a legitimate call?

    I was watching a select level U-13 game today and one team was awarded a corner kick. A player lined up over the ball at the corner flag and then proceeded to dribble into the box pass the ball to a teammate, who then scored.

    The coach of the other team protested, the CR went over to the AR of the side at which the corner had been taken, consulted for a moment and came over to explain.

    She was allowing the goal, she said, because the AR had noted that the player who had placed the ball for the corner had then tapped it, without moving it, with his foot and run onto the field. At that point, she said, the ball was in play and therefore if was perfectly legal for the second player to come over, fake the corner, and then dribble in as he had.
     
  2. ProfZodiac

    ProfZodiac Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jan 17, 2003
    Boston, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Sounds legal to me. I know of a team where one lines up to take the kick, and one stands with their legs open to pass the ball through. Then the second dribbles in.

    They call it "giggle."
     
  3. Tmagic77

    Tmagic77 Member+

    Feb 10, 2003
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    It is legal. I'm surprised it was allowed unless the coach had asked the referee about it before hand. I've done that in some games, and the ref whistles the play dead because he's confused about it.
     
  4. bungadiri

    bungadiri Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jan 25, 2002
    Acnestia
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Based on what I heard after the game, it sounds like the AR had his attention drawn to it some time before it happened.
     
  5. RobB

    RobB New Member

    Aug 8, 2003
    Birmingham
    It could be ruled illegal, depends on the ref. It could be deemed ungentlemanly conduct, a polite way of saying within the laws of the game but outside the laws of sportsmanship. For instance, an attacking player might shout `keepers ball` so a defender leaves a cross, gaining an advantage by tricking an opponent. Also, a player shouldn`t leave the field with-out permission, unless by accident or to take a corner or throw in or goal kick. If the player left to make it look like a corner when the ball was in play, he would need permission to re-enter the pitch. Finally, a dead ball must complete one revolution to be deemed in play, the quadrants are meant to be the length of a footballs` circumfrence so a short corner must be kicked out of the quadrant to complete one rev.
    So I would say that the officials got it wrong if the player ran off the pitch to fake a corner and/or took the ball when it was still in the quadrant.
     
  6. new old man

    new old man New Member

    Jun 7, 2003
    SW US
    corner stuff

    Rob, without meaning to be rude, you need to update on the changes in the LOTG. The moving the circumference of the ball went out several years back. Touched and moves is the newer phrase.
    The original kicker did not leave the field, as I read the scenario.
    Sounds like legitimate tactics, from the description.
     
  7. MD_05

    MD_05 New Member

    Oct 18, 2002
    Ohio
    my high school team does this and it works very very well.
    we've done it 3 times so far. 1st time- nice cross but no one gets to it. 2nd time- we score a goal as the ref is blowing the whistle saying it wasn't a legal corner kick. 3rd time- the ref blows it dead as our guy is dribbling down the line.
    my guys claims that he told the ref "we're doing a trick play" each time right before he does it. i guess we have to explain it to the refs before the game.
     
  8. SpongeBobSquarePants

    Jun 18, 2003
    Silver Spring
    I'm not a ref and you've all missed this call. FIFA rules state "the ball is in play when it is kicked and
    moves forward." In this case the ball did not move. Therefore, it is not in play.
     
  9. steever

    steever Member

    Jan 14, 2002
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Re: Re: Corner kick: was this ball in play?

    The forward movement requirement applies only to kick-offs and penalty kicks. Other re-starts may be played in any direction. The play in question has been legal for some time.
     
  10. whistleblowerusa

    whistleblowerusa BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jun 25, 2001
    U.S.A.
    Re: Re: Corner kick: was this ball in play?

    We can tell that you are not a ref by how you explain the laws interpretation. The ball will move and does move when it is touched/kicked. A kick does not need to fly into the air. A kick is a touch, whether hard or soft, of the ball. The ball moved slightly on the play in question and was in play.
     
  11. SpongeBobSquarePants

    Jun 18, 2003
    Silver Spring
    Re: Re: Re: Corner kick: was this ball in play?

    That seems odd to me, but I will take what you say as the truth. However, the corner kick in this case did not move at all. It was only tapped. Is it still in play?
     
  12. new old man

    new old man New Member

    Jun 7, 2003
    SW US
    and moves

    Good point. I had not focused on the ARs tapped, but not moved statement. Would this be quantum physics, or an easier kind? The degree of movement required has been debated, long and hard, on other sites. Seems to get rather esoteric, at some level. If you kick me, and I don't feel it, is there a foul? Regards.
     
  13. SpongeBobSquarePants

    Jun 18, 2003
    Silver Spring
    Re: Re: Re: Corner kick: was this ball in play?

    I can tell you are a ref by your condescending attitude. The ball did not move - read the original message.
     
  14. ProfZodiac

    ProfZodiac Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jan 17, 2003
    Boston, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Re: Corner kick: was this ball in play?

    Point the first: How am I supposed to take seriously a guy who's pseudonym is a foolish cartoon character?
    Point the second: You're wrong. Period. Exclamation point, jackass.
    Point the third: You're an idiot for telling us we're all wrong, when you're not a ref yourself. SchmuckBobStupidPants.
    Point the fourth: Welcome to my ignore list.
     
  15. whistleblowerusa

    whistleblowerusa BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jun 25, 2001
    U.S.A.
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Corner kick: was this ball in play?

    Nice try spongey but this was not what you were talking about. You commented on the Laws which you were not correct.
    The ball was touched, the ball would move if it was touched. This is how it is taught and interpreted.
    If the AR decided that the ball was not put into play properly or that the ball did not move, the flag should have gone up.
    Don't be so sensitive when someone tells you that you are not correct.
     
  16. SpongeBobSquarePants

    Jun 18, 2003
    Silver Spring
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Corner kick: was this ball in play?

    The original statement said the ball didn't move. How else am I supposed to read that?

    I think the sensitive side are the refs here who can't admit to either being wrong or that there might be more than interpretation to a call. The original statement was a question about something debatable?
     
  17. SpongeBobSquarePants

    Jun 18, 2003
    Silver Spring
    Re: Re: Re: Corner kick: was this ball in play?

    Unlike using Calvin as your icon?

    Thanks for explaining how I'm wrong. Why you need to curse at me is what I don't understand. If you disagree, please fill me in?

    I hope you're really not a ref with that sensitive attitude.
     
  18. ProfZodiac

    ProfZodiac Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jan 17, 2003
    Boston, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Corner kick: was this ball in play?

    Did someone say something?
     
  19. SpongeBobSquarePants

    Jun 18, 2003
    Silver Spring
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Corner kick: was this ball in play?

    You need to grow up.
     
  20. new old man

    new old man New Member

    Jun 7, 2003
    SW US
    whoa, nellie

    It is very difficult, in my experience, to succesfully attack a cartoon character. Bad things always happen.
    The kicks and moves requirement is also applicable to corners. Let us not be too quick, please, to attack and offend for a correct postulate on the LOTG by a nonref- especially when he may be right. I missed two calls today alone- but I am not saying which ones. Regards.
     
  21. AndyMead

    AndyMead Homo Sapien

    Nov 2, 1999
    Seat 12A
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    The 2000 US Olympic team tried this twice and both times had the play blown dead by the referees. Guess they didn't grow up with the old hidden ball trick.
     
  22. bungadiri

    bungadiri Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jan 25, 2002
    Acnestia
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Maybe I can clarify this a little.

    1. The CR came over to the sideline and explained what had happened by going through the motions of placing a ball on the ground and stepping down on top of it, while saying the ball wasn't moved. I suppose it's also worth noting that she was relying on the AR's description. Why she didn't immediately blow the play dead, given that she herself hadn't seen this part of the trick, is a curiosity, to say the least.

    2. The player who did this I presume (didn't see) left the field only to place the ball. He then moved into the field again.

    Speaking as a fan, I like the ungentlemanly conduct interpretation: it certainly felt like an adherence to the letter of the law that subverts its intent, at best.
     
  23. IASocFan

    IASocFan Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 13, 2000
    IOWA
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The current advice is that if the ball is touched, that has satisfied the moved requirement. I have seen this play tried in a tournament by several teams, sometimes warning the ref, sometimes not. It is legal. If you don't let the ref know, you, like the US Olympic Team may confuse the ref and he will call a second touch, IFK for the defending team.

    Sponge Bob and Prof Z, please be professional, and refrain from personal attacks. I'm too tired to night to go back and edit.
     
  24. jacathcart

    jacathcart New Member

    Oct 11, 2002
    Tacoma WA
    We've beaten this issue to death before - with the noted exceptions requiring forward movement it seems that the current consensus is that while a kiss is just a kiss, a touch is sufficient to put the ball in play.

    The more interesting follow-up now is that if a touch is sufficient then the attacker's intent is meaningless. Therefore, should any attacker use his or her FOOT to reposition the ball the defenders are free to mount a cavalry charge because the ball is in play. The "sotto voce" warning to the ref is not a condition precedent to the legality of the trickery, it merely hopes to prevent a whistle depriving the team of the advantage of their chicanery. Not like the old "tackle eligible" in pointy football where the ref must be informed in order for the lineman to be eligible to catch the pass.

    Unfortunately, I can easily envision the scenario where the unthinking attacker moves the ball with his or her foot (mostly in the younger brackets), the defenders charge and get whistled for FRD.

    Jim
     
  25. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You're only referring to corner kicks--and not free kicks--here, right? Because I agree with you on corner kicks. If a ball is properly placed, motionless, in the arc, and an attacker touches it, it has to be in play. But, for free kicks, if we deem all touches as meeting the requirement of putting the ball in play, then we open up an entirely different can of worms. It's usually--admittedly, not always, but usually--quite easy to discern the intent of the attackers surrounding the taking of a free kick.

    Most free kick restarts either fall into the category of a quick restart or that of a ceremonial restart. However, some players do kick the ball (and consequently 'move' it) in order to reposition it for its proper taking. This is different from a corner kick because only we, as referees, determine where the actual spot of the foul was. In my mind, if there is any controversy about whether or not an attacker was legitimately trying to put the ball back into play with a quick restart when he kicked it (rather than simply reposition it), then we as referees should simply just order a retake from the 'proper' position. If, of course, and attacker is clearly attempting a quick, sneaky free kick, and gets caught by the defense, we should not order a retake. But if there's any doubt then I feel that the correct thing to do is go to a ceremonial restart from the proper position of the free kick.
     

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