I just got off the phone with a friend who is Brazilian, and while a US Citizen, he spends three months or so in Brazil every year. When I told him about how Corinthians shellacked our '85 Regional teams, here is what he told me about Corinthians youth development program (this is the BIG club, in Sao Paolo). -- On a monthly basis, they hold open tryouts for any player 12 years of age. 300 to 400 kids show up. They may take three to six from the tryout, they may take none. --They scout players all over the region. --If you get selected, you immediately go into the Academy, live there, eat there, and go to school there full time. They have nutritionists, pyschologists, massage profesionals, a team doctor, who attend to all their youth players. --They practice 5 to 6 times a week. Conditioning, plyometrics, tactical and technical training, the full gamut. --Despite the fact that this club, like others in Brazil, has financial problems, the cost of this academy is quite reasonble in the context of overall expenses. --This past December, he saw their U15 team in a tournament, which they won handily. He said they could probably beat all but the very best U17 or U18 clubs in the USA. Basicially, the upshot is that our part-time non professional regional kids got hosed by what amount to a highly organized, highly motivated team of full-time professionals. Oh, and those of you who call for "more street soccer" -- disabuse yourself right now of the myth of a whole bunch of Peles playing barefoot with a worn out ball in some dusty street. This is a methodical, professionalized, modern "factory" to produce elite soccer players.
talent versus technical I was going to start a new thread on this but being the post whore that I am I’ll post it here. My question is related to the post above though. What truly contributes to the great players that come out of Brazil? Does Brazil really produce players because of sheer natural talent or is it their ability to mold and develop players through a superior system? I know that simple put it would be a combination of both but if that were the case wouldn’t many other countries be producing the amazing numbers of exceptional players. Yes there are other countries with high numbers of truly talented players but Brazil seems to produce players that are used as measuring sticks for the rest of the world. If as you say Karl the myth of street soccer is true then can we credit it all to the development system? Were does the ability to be an amazing soccer player come from? Brazil is only the example in my post the really question is where truly an elite athlete comes from, natural talent or development.
Street Soccer vs. The Factory Guys - C'mon, it's a combination of both factors -- the street and the factory. Brazilian kids grow up with the game and play it a lot. Take 1000 Brazilian 12 year olds, and the top 100 will be better than all but the very best U.S. youths. I suspect that Brazilian #100 will be better than U.S. #10. Maybe than #5 (although definitely not U.S. #1). Then, you take this better-than-U.S. pool and you train these stars from age 12 with better training than any U.S. 12 year old is getting. Better than Sockers, better than Delco, better than Rush. This is a business in Brazil and they treat it as such. Voila! You now have teams that can beat our Regional and even National youth teams by several goals. Quite simple, really.
Re: talent versus technical Brazil produces Soccer players the same way we produce basketball players. At least in numbers. Our basketbal players are given absolute freedom within the game until they hit college
Karl similar story. I was at the USA Cup with a U19 team a few years back. A "coaching synposium" was put on by a youth Brit coach and one from Brazil (actually it was a pretty good BS session) The English guy talked about how hard they tried to get youngster into their academies. Cricket,rugby, tennis, etc not to mention TV pulls the typical Brit kid around much like other activities do kids in the US. The Brazil guy said whenever they needed a kid they held a tryout and 600-700 showed up. So they had a ton of prospects already motivated by the game. One other part missing in your excellent tale is a discussion of poverty and soccer as a way out for Brazilian kids. Nothing like a little motivation.
Well, this is true about the Corinthians youth team except for a few things.......I would know, I was in the system......Some players live in their own houses and train actually closer to 4 times a week......the other days include games and rest days.....These players are pros....they get paid..... I never was payed because I wanted to keep my amatuer status so I can play in college..... if anyone wants to see I can post my pictures from my time at corinthians and my failed trial at Sao Paulo FC???? I did it a while back, last year but u didn't see I can do it again....
good points all round... ...just a couple more observations: Poverty and motivation Dan raises a great point. Soccer is certainly the best way up for millions of kids throughout the country. I recall reading a great story in Placar a few years ago - complete with some scary pictures - about Zico's arrival at Flamengo. He was still a teenager, so obviously still had some growing to do, but you could tell from the pic that the Flamengo med staff took on his first day that he just wasn't eating well. The club's nutritionists put him on a special program and he recovered as well as could be expected from that point forward. Santos reportedly wants Robinho to spend more of his non-soccer time at their facilities and take in more of his meals with the club. Their nutritionists believe that he arrived at the club undernourished and isn't making as much progress as he should nutritionally because he's spending too much time at home and presumably still eating poorly there. Those examples probably illustrate the situation for many of the 300-400 kids (remember that the Sao Paulo megalopolis has a pop. of at least 18 million) who show up every month at Corinthians’ open tryouts. It's unlikely that the US will ever come anywhere near a player base with that sort of motivation. But not every youth player comes from that background. Even clubs in Sao Paulo develop good players out of the middle class. Sao Paulo FC, in particular, is the city's historically middle-class club and still draws well from that base, although it's now a massive club with support from all sectors of society. Even Corinthians, the city's most historically working class club - "O Timao do Povao", also draws a few middle class players. It's also true that soccer is king and that's what you see kids playing in the street in every neighborhood. But lots of kids also play lots of sports. In my school (and yes, it was a middle class environment), everyone also played basketball, volleyball, and team handball. No, poor kids aren't playing team handball in the favelas, but other sports get more attention than we often assume - just offering a fuller picture of the situation. Clubs’ resources The big clubs - the likes of Corinthians, Flamengo, Santos, etc. - have great resources at their disposal. They not only have excellent coaches and facilities, they also have comprehensive ancillary services - medical, nutritional, educational, etc. - to get the most out of talented kids. The resources that big clubs in Brazil enjoy easily differentiate them from clubs in many other soccer-mad countries that also have large talent pools. I’ve read some interesting views on these boards regarding Brazilian clubs’ financial resources. I think people may hear about annual debt management or the occasional financial fiasco by some ineptly-managed Carioca club (“Carioca” and “poor management” are synonymous ) and then draw some broad, inaccurate conclusion that the big clubs in Brazil lack resources. I’ve said more than enough on that topic in another thread, so I won’t repeat myself here. But let me just point out that when Flamengo runs men’s and women’s gymnastic programs and Corinthians runs men’s and women’s water polo programs (Corinthians even recently added synchronized swimming) that compete nationally, and often internationally, you really don’t need to worry about whether their soccer programs are well-funded. Competitive environment A massive, highly motivated talent pool that’s developed in a comprehensive, professional youth player development program tells most of the story. But the youth player development story in the state of Sao Paulo isn’t complete until we look at the level of organized competition that youth teams face regularly. The Paulista soccer federation runs state-wide leagues at the U-20 (three divisions, actually), U-17, and U-15 levels. I don’t believe that they run an U-13 league, but the clubs organize their own tourneys at that level. So, by the time that the kids who show up at Corinthians’ open try-outs reach 17 or 18, they’ve already been competing against similarly talented and well-developed teams from the other big Paulista clubs for a few years. Even some of the smaller clubs in the interior - like, oh, say, Guarani - have excellent resources and often beat the big clubs from the capital in the state leagues at all age levels. I’m not familiar enough with the state feds and their leagues in most of the other states to offer any helpful comparison, so I won’t speculate. But it’s clear enough that the level of competition that Paulista clubs enjoy at the youth level is very, very high. Paulista youth clubs tend to win a lot of national youth competitions (or at least they brag about it more). Guarani, for example, just won a major U-13 tourney in January by beating teams from Flamengo and Parana Clube.
Great thread. Obviously we have to worry about getting the 15 and 16 year olds into the proper environment first before we start thinking about the U14 kids. I'm not even totally convinced that high level academy style training is necessary to produce world class potential players. I look at that as more of a luxury. I'd prefer that kids be able to live at home also during this whole process when at all possible.
Excellent comments. Just for comparison sake, Brazil has a huge population. It's not like the size of California or Texas, it's comparable to the entire United States. The awesome multi-sport stars in the US like Dieon Sanders, Bo Jackson, Michael Jordan, etc., well they are all playing only soccer in Brazil. It probably would also be helpful to think of Sao Paolo as an entire New York City metropolitan area where 100% of the sports emphasis is on soccer. Think of everyone playing basketball in New York, well in SP they're playing soccer. Football, Baseball, Hockey, Soccer, Running, whatever--but in SP those guys are playing soccer. When we look at it that way, it doesn't seem so incomprehensible that they could be constantly producing world class players. Frankly, it's more surprising that Holland can produce as many as they do. -Tron
actually, Brazilians play a lot of sports... Tron, I agree fundamentally with much of what you said. But I have to disagree slightly with the idea that all the good athletes in Brazil play only soccer at a serious level. There’s indeed a kernel of truth, but people too easily and too often overemphasize soccer’s popularity as a complete explanation. There’s no doubt that more sports are more popular in the US than in Brazil. There’s no doubt that soccer rules in Brazil like no sport does in the US. But it doesn’t follow that the key difference between soccer in Brazil and the US is that in Brazil the good athletes play only soccer at a serious level, whereas in the US the good athletes play all sorts of sports. That sort of conclusion sadly distorts how people often think about the potential for soccer in the US. It’s true that most Brazilian kids grow up playing soccer more than any other sport. But it’s also true that large numbers of good athletes pick other pro sports. It’s common to see claims about whether a player in some sport would succeed in another sport. That’s good pub talk (and I’m all for pub talk), but that’s all it is. All that we can actually conclude sensibly is that we can find skilled pros in a variety of sports. It’s true that Brazil’s best team sport is soccer. But it’s also true that Brazil regularly produces competitive teams at various international levels in basketball, volleyball, and handball. For example, Brazil is the current FIVB World League men’s champion. We also see good Brazilian athletes in more individually-oriented sports like tennis, track, and swimming. It’s true that Brazilians pay more attention to soccer than anything else. But it’s also true that other sports get a lot of attention. One of the biggest events on the Sao Paulo sporting calendar is the annual Sao Silvestre race - it’s a really huge deal, much like the NY Marathon. And, as I’ve suggested above, the big clubs in Brazil field a variety of teams in many sports. Most of those sports don’t pay for themselves, but you still get a big crowd and serious coverage whenever there’s something like a Corinthians x Palmeiras or Flamengo x Vasco meeting in any sport. It’s a lot like big-time college sports culture in the US - football may be king, but many people still follow their college’s teams in several sports. The popularity of soccer in Brazil matters. The large populations of Brazil and, more importantly, the state of Sao Paulo matter. I'm not suggesting otherwise. But it's the quality and commitment of the developmental process that provides the most useful lessons for American soccer.
I know what anderson is saying about Brazilian Sport Clubs. I was fortunate to watch a show on one a few years back. An old discusion point on the NSL news server was the possibility of establishing similar clubs in the US. Combining a swim, soccer, & tennis facility with a restuarant and weight room for example with a couple of fields doesn't involve much acreage . The fee structure for such a facility is certainly within the range of most middle class Americans when adding up what is spent on soccer fees, health clubs, etc. . I'm very suprised that such clubs haven't caught on. An USL team hook up would ceratinly be within reason. Then figure out how to hook it up to an MLS team. Perhaps an IPO by Anshutz with the club members getting first dibs. Going back to the poverty thing. Speaking of very small "clubs" geared to keeping kids straight. As I have stated elsewhere I still think we could tap into inner city kids using futsal. It seems like a perfect game for church sponsored youth programs, etc trying to keep kids in school and off the street. Maybe anderson can comment on it's play by kids in Brazil.
futsal, technique, and little kids I certainly don’t claim any particularly interesting knowledge about futsal (most of what I’ve posted above is pretty much common knowledge sort of stuff). But since you asked... It’s been pretty standard practice at least among most Paulista clubs to incorporate futsal into their youth development programs for several years now. That’s probably the case in most of the country - I’ve read that there are now several hundred registered clubs nationwide, but I just don’t recall the exact number. Futsal's commonly used as an entry-level activity for very young kids. The little kids start out playing futsal to learn technique before they move on to much else. It’s got some pretty obvious advantages for technical development - emphases on first touch and dribbling because of reduced spaces, very fast ball movement, etc. I’m not a coach, but I think the consensus is that futsal’s not very useful for learning how to defend or stay organized - but I think that's the point. There’s not much concern with developing little kids’ tactical awareness at that age level. The idea is to provide an organized environment in which kids can develop technique. They’ll have plenty of time to learn team tactics and defensive organization as they get older - like 13 or 14. For example, Robinho - sorry, I’m just obsessed with Robinho right now - started playing futsal at age 6 with a small club in his neighborhood in Sao Vicente (in the Santos area). He played in what they call the “fraldinha” division - literally, the “diaper” division. I believe he didn’t reach Santos FC until age 11 - but even there he started out in the futsal department. He credits futsal with helping him learn much of his technical skill. Ronaldo has also been widely quoted as saying that he developed a lot of his technique playing futsal as a kid. And, as Dan points out, it probably wouldn't take all that much to get kids playing in inner-city or rural church gyms and whatnot. I don't know much about neighborhood clubs in Sao Vicente, but I'll bet that the sort of club that Robinho joined when he was 6 probably didn't have massive resources.
Re: futsal, technique, and little kids My memory may be vague on this, but I recall reading somewhere that Ronaldo really never played outdoors until he was around 12 or 13...that he spent all his playing time till then on the futsal court...
Re: futsal, technique, and little kids And now the secrets are revealed. Perhaps this is a case of us having too many fields available here in the U.S. I live in the central part of the country, and there are plenty of soccer fields around. Kids grow up playing on a soccer field with lots of space. I do think futsal should be promoted more--it's probably even a little funner for young kids because of the tight spaces. Any basketball court will do. Unfortunately indoor dasher board soccer is all the rage in this country. I know in Spain they also play a lot of futsal.
anderson - I am totally with you with regard to technical development of young players being THE most important thing. There are many coaches in this country who simply cannot recognize the difference between good and poor technique, yet think that they should be focusing on tactical development of young players. Creating an environment where technical excellence is the absolute priority, where young kids are regularly playing games that encourage technical excellence and are being guided by those who can recognize and help teach top class technique is crucial to the development of greater numbers of world class players. For those of you who do coach, and are mostly concerned about what system of play to use with your U11's, how to teach positional play in 4v4, and generally interested in choreographing the play of young kids, please stop.
Thank you. My nephew(6 years old) was playing soccer last spring and the damn coach would tell the players to "pass the ball". While I appreciate these people volunteering their time, attitudes like those don't help us create mature players with good technical skills. Too many youth coaches try and teach tactics at too early of an age when FUNDAMENTAL skill development should be the primary goal for younger players. As previously mentioned on these boards there is too much emphasis placed on winning at the youth level and not enough emphasis placed on skill development.
you know, something that too many coaches look past is the simple idea that the game is a hell of a lot more fun to play if you are capable with the ball. When it is fun, they will continue playing, want to play more, and even want to train more. True, it is good that people are willing to volunteer their time, just wish we had a much larger pool of coaches who are knowledgeable.
My brother, who one could consider Joe Six Pack(knows Pele and no one else in the soccer world), was attracted to the players who had more skill with the ball at last year's World Cup. He about came unglued watching the skill on display in the Turkey vs. Brazil match. Basturk was pretty awesome in the midfield in that match, Ronaldo was Ronaldo, and that one Turkish player who flicked the ball behind his back, over his head and to himself were things that really excited him. I think that's something worth noting when training our youth players.
Re: actually, Brazilians play a lot of sports... Yeah, I was oversimplifying to make a point, but you are obviously correct. Brazil also recently had a very high NBA draft pick (Nene?) and has some of the X games best players as well. I just wanted to show how everyone in Brazil plays soccer, and far far more play it almost exclusively than US athletes play anything. The closest thing we have is basketball, but even the basketball players have almost all played football and baseball as kids. I shudder to think of how good US basketball players could be if they had professional coaching at age 12 with nutritionists, etc. training them in all of the fundamentals. By the time they were 16 they would all be good dribblers and passers, and most would have an outside shot. By the time they were 23 they would be in their primes. So I wanted to explain that the very culture does not divide the athletics the way we do here. Sorry for over-stating it a bit. -Tron
I feel kinda clueless, but I've kept myself out of this loop long enough I guess. What is futsal? I know that some of the USMNT players played it (like Agoos) and that it's played on a very small field/floor like a basketball court, but it's not "indoor" soccer. Does that mean you cannot use the walls? Is it 11v11 or reduced numbers? Are their goals and if so how big are they? Does it have keepers? Sorry, but I don't want to be clueless any longer. If this is too off topic, feel free to PM me. Thanks. -Tron
I'm not so sure that's not borderline perverse and could in fact stymie individuality & creativity if handcuffed by a systematic dogma of a Bobby Knight type.
Wanderer - I have had the same with my father-in-law, who knows little about the game of soccer, but after he watched a little he really started to appreciate much of the technical prowess on display by the top players in the world. Digitron - futsal is basically a small version of the game, played on a basketball sized court with a ball that bounces less than normal, smaller goals, four players per team plus a keeper. Fast game, premium placed on a players ability to deal with the ball and small group tactics. Great learning environment for young kids because of the emphasis on technique.