http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/copa-america-run-parallel-upcoming-10056607 http://www.lagrinta.fr/la-copa-america-et-leuro-se-derouleront-en-meme-temps-a-lavenir&7245/ http://www.entornointeligente.com/a...juegue-al-mismo-tiempo-que-la-EURO-desde-2020 http://www.starsandstripesfc.com/copa-america/2017/3/20/14982554/copa-america-2020-usa-brazil-euros http://www.cbssports.com/soccer/new...lly-coming-back-to-the-united-states-in-2020/ I think that I called it back when we were talking about this possibility in the other forum for the Copa America Centenario. So how much longer are we gonna play these games? Lets just get married already and be done with it bc I'm tired of living a lie... CONMEBOL,... you're the only one for me... and your women are so fit... and frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn! Because you had me at hello... you had me at hello... You say no, no, no, no, no! I say yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah! And with the rumored WC expansion, Carribean exodus from CONCACAF, and numerous officials in FIFA not to mention players like Argentina's Mascherano who have talked up the possibility of a CONMEBOL/CONCACAF merger, the Copa America has now released this... as expected ever since the monetary returns came back. In the end, the USSF, and both CONMEBOL and CONCACAF all saw more money than any of them could have conceived of on their own. So this time it was the USSF reaching out instead of playing hard to get and CONMEBOL accepting, because,... why not... they like money too... and to up the ante, why do we even play our tournament in odd years anyway, let's make UEFA happy and play it at the same time as the Euros from now on,... everyone wins... ...except fans of South American football fans who will likely now see another Copa America on US soil if this goes through... my condolences, but you cannot deceive yourselves into thinking that anyone who runs a footballing anything on this sphere that we live on would ever do something so counter-intuitive (to them, at least) as turn down money... it's un-American... in both hemispheres... In 'Murca, it's like... all about... In Nigeria we do it this way... Now, this thing could still be in the works and nothing says that either side couldn't back out, but this makes a whole lot of sense for all parties involved, especially given the money that was made on this tournament. Even splitting profits everyone made out like bandits... At any rate, the dance between CONCACAF and CONMEBOL will continue into the next decade and perhaps our holy union might soon be consummated formally so that we no longer have to sneak out on lonely nights for unified tournaments for fear that our peers might shun us for playing out of wedlock. Until that day comes,... I leave us all with a serenade... para mi, digo vamos a bailar juntos... ...so if the music can mesh, then why can't we? ...but, my fvckers, if Trump is reelected by then... a reminder... for everyone who comes... Enjoy the footie, and try not to get mistaken for Mexican immigrants!!! Peace, love and footie folks,....BYYYYEEEE!!!!! ... and buy... tickets...
My DREAMS would, then, COME TRUE! A 20-association Confederation of North, Central, and South America would be AWESOME! All hail the great CONCSAF - Confederation of North, Center, and South America of Football!
Umm....the three part proposal is a poster wish list - yes? I support the alignment with the Euros, can live with back-to-back tournaments in 2019/2020 on the basis of that future synchronization but reject any more co-productions with CONCACAF as far as the FIFA international calendar is concerned.
Yeah, my main problem with synchronizing with the Euros had always been that the Copa would then interfere/overlap with WC qualifying. But since the CONMEBOL WC qualifying format is headed for a drastic change anyway, then I guess it makes sense to have the Copa 2 years before/after each WC. As for a Copa America in US&A in 2020. , well that's just blatant corporate greed. I hope FIFA doesn't recognize it as an official tourney and clubs don't release their players.
Considering that FIFA has made it known that they want a full CONCACAF/CONMEBOL merger to happen, there's little chance that they block this thing unless they don't see this as a path towards getting the thing that they actually want in the end. So anything that makes the likelihood of them merging stronger will be something that FIFA will sign off on. Plus, CONMEBOL has just thrown a major bone to FIFA and UEFA; why would they then turn around and say "no" to anything? It is corporate greed but all of these things like merged Copas, talks of club competitions, to the expanded WC, are signs pointing towards a future union between the confederations which solve alot of issues for both while costing UEFA little. It affords CONMEBOL extra WC spots and potentially greater exposure for both their national teams as well as their clubs in a fertile football marketplace that is ripe to be exploited. At the same time, the prestige of the South American competitions as well as the... well... competition of the South Americans themselves gives Mexico and the US what they've needed and wanted for awhile (granted, Mexico often seems more aware of this fact than the US does at times...). As much as South American fans complain about not having the money to keep more of their stars at home, I would think that they would be more open to the possibility of how having the US market available to sell jerseys and tv contracts to could possibly help them too. Not that CONCACAF/CONMEBOL could compete with UEFA, but it helps.
As it is, the more and more that I hear about what's being proposed by FIFA, then asked for by UEFA and what CONMEBOL is asking for, vs what is possible and what compromises seem reasonable; the more I think that a formal merger seems more and more likely if the WC expands to 48. First off, CONMEBOL will want more spots which FIFA will likely be reluctant to do for a 10 member confed while still trying to justify maybe two extra spots to keep UEFA happy. So if UEFA goes to 16 then you could justify giving a unified CONMECAF 13 to 14 spots, which would probably be the one thing that would pacify fans in CONMEBOL who would rue the compromise to their confederation. Maybe not in Brazil or Argentina who almost never miss out, but in Ecuador, Peru, Paraguay, etc... How could CONMEBOL turn down a potential chance to qualify all of their existing members? All they have to do is accept CONCACAF, or what may be left of it depending on what happens to it's own existing members. And the potential numbers being thrown about are telling. They often include just enough members to guarantee enough berths for all of CONMEBOL, US and Mexico who are the major interests to whom you have to sell on this. Sure the rest of CONCACAF would be needed, but I don't see Central American countries breaking with Mexico especially over this. Maybe Carribean nations, but they're already having issues living in CONCACAF right now. I'd hate to see them go because this could help them as well. Not having power in CONCACAF at the moment is an issue for them when they've held the reigns for so long, but their football needs investment and exposure to better competition. Breaking up with the group helps neither of those things. So that's my very tired brain's thoughts on this. Sorry for the disjointed nature of everything.
I agree with most of what you’re saying. I just hope it doesn’t become like the Gold Cup where every regional championship is hosted by the same country. I guess moving the Copa to two years after each World Cup will also create a gap in the calendar where not many competitive matches would be played. Hopefully CONMEBOL-CONCACAF can implement their own Nations’ League to help fill this gap. They can have three leagues of 16 teams, 16 teams and 13 teams.
If you allow CONMEBOL and CONCACAF to organize everything they want and place it on the FIFA calendar you take away some of that incentive to merge. The lines are already very blurry between both confederations. So far we have seen: - CONMEBOL guests at the Gold Cup (now discontinued) - CONCACAF guests at the Copa America - CONCACAF guests in CONMEBOL club competitions - Cope America Centenario USA 2016 (unique treatment on FIFA calendar) I say the Centenario was enough to whet the appetite for a hypothetical merger. The unique calendar treatment was passed by the old FIFA regime and the promise was that it was a one-off. Don't get me wrong, I support a merger. Always have. I want order in the Americas. But a certain Jamaican fan will arrive shortly and list all the reasons why it's better to remain separate. In the past I argued against a Centenario-style tournament with separate confederations due to two major reasons: 1. Mexico and the USA "having their cake and eating it too". Easy World Cup qualifying in CONCACAF but playing in a prestigious nations cup with Brazil and Argentina. All the benefits and zero drawbacks that normally come with confederation membership. The best of both worlds. Imagine an ambitious China playing in the Euros thanks to its market size but then qualifying for the World Cup in the AFC. It's an unfair competitive advantage for the football programs in the USA and Mexico. I fully admit this point carries less weight now with the looming World Cup expansion. The USA and Mexico would likely qualify out of a combined Americas confederation. 2. FIFA international calendar congestion. Both confederations would likely want to hang on to their respective nations cups on top of the combined tournament. To me the ideal balance between club interests and the various football associations is a quadrennial nations cup next to the World Cup. Today only two confederations insist on a biennial frequency. CONCACAF and CAF. The above scenario would add another summer for CONMEBOL. FIFA need to finally consider the club interests and work towards that goal. I would go as far as telling CAF and CONCACAF that going forward only one of their nations cups can be on the calendar. Otherwise we are risking a break-up of the game. The signs from the European club elite are getting clearer and clearer and the Euros and World Cup expansion aren't helping either. In short, unless the Americas merge any "Centenario" requests need to be flat-out rejected.
Our qualifying system is the best! I wouldn't change a bit. As I have said in the post Unak has quoted here, it should become a LEAGUE! Sometimes, greed can bring good things as side effect. This seems to be the case. ;-)
Humans care too much for the lines they draw on maps and between each other. The map existed long before we did and it will remain long after you and I are dead. What we create will require unified efforts regardless of who remains afterwards, yet the bulk of our resources are still spent trying to reinforce those lines to the detriment of our future. Globalization would be a welcome alternative...
Last time I have checked, I still had Gaucho folkwear in my drawer, Portuguese (and Spanish) is still spoken in my hometown, my library hadbooks on local legends and Portuguese and Brazilian nursery rhymes, and I still had Brazilian and Gaucho music in my playlists. Moreover, I am passing this all on to my kids! Don't worry. There still are PLENTY of means of resistance against globalization.
Our individual cultures are precious commodities, sure, but let's realize that the cultural purity that many strive for was a lost cause hundreds of years ago during the age of exploration. How many Central and South American indigenous languages are extinct? Even now, indigenous tongues in Africa are beginning to die out in favor of European tongues. However, globalization and cultural understanding expressed through the internet has done alot to ensure that the rampant genocide and intolerance of the past may not be our future. People hold onto their cultures when they choose to and most do when they can. There are far more resources available for people to learn their parent tongues today than there were even ten years ago. With the number of languages being catalogued and preserved in the digital realm for people to peruse, we may never again lose another language or culture. Being open to engaging other people from other parts of the globe isn't some impending evil. Wanting to dominate them is. Wanting to remain isolated is, which is the same sentiment which leads to the current political climate. Okay enough of getting off topic here... I'll re-focus... so how about the Copa America?
Isn't globalization the reason that Portuguese (and Spanish) are spoken in your hometown? Our concept of what local & national culture is, is based on where the lines on the map are, not the other way around. Brasil could absorb Bolivia and your kids will be bragging how saltenas are a delicious Brasilian baked good within 20 years time.
I am not a purist by any means whatsoever. I was simply pointing that there is no need to fear globalization. Freedom is cause of two antagonistic phenomena – both conformity and diversity. My children had the experience of living in America. We are currently living in the Brazil-Argentina border. They know that the world is bigger than their parish. I am simply teaching them that there are good things in our parish too! As you know, I am all in for including Concacaf teams. I am excited!
Che, my answer is already given above: So, I am from the border; from the Brazilian Gaucho region. Culturally, we are halfway between Rio and Buenos Aires. I am pretty aware that cultural and political lines are not as clear as maps and border control make them to be. It makes no sense to me whastoever the fact that I have no problem taking my car and driving 4,000km North to Natal (Brazil), but I cannot go to Paso de Los Libres (Argentina), right across the bridge, without having to pass through customs EVERY SINGLE TIME. Besides the fact that I feel more at home in Montevideo than in Fortaleza... I am even traveling tomorrow to watch Uruguay-Brazil at Centenario, and to root for the home team!
Some CONCACAF countries don't try to qualify for the Gold Cup. How would a Nations League with the bottom 13 teams make enough money for the countries to want to travel to away games unless it was subsidized by revenue from the top Nations League (which would provide less incentive for the best countries to play in a Nations League)? The bottom 13 in CONCACAF or CONMEBOL (all of them are in CONCACAF) in the FIFA Rankings are: Grenada Aruba Dominica St. Vincent and the Grenadines St. Lucia Bermuda US Virgin Islands Montserrat Cayman Islands Turks and Caicos Islands British Virgin Islands Bahamas Anguilla Even if everybody in the world could watch any game on TV for free, how many people would watch games between two of those teams?
Fair point. I didn't think about that. But then again most of those NTs do partake in Gold Cup qualifying where they are placed into groups of 3, just like they would in a Nations League. I guess instead of home-and-away though they would just play all group matches in one location over the course of a week. And the games would be part of Gold Cup qualifying.
From an interview with CONMEBOL president Dominguez: Always? Every other? And now the CONCACAF view from president Montagliani: Interesting final line. If the quadrennial Copa (Pan-) America replaces the Gold Cup entirely then perhaps I could support this. Still would prefer a full merger however,
You know the talks and reunions this guys have don't even matter, they're just waiting for the highest tv contract, official sponsors, etc. to tell 'em what to do and then they'll announce it as their own discussed and thought through decision...
There will be no merger. This is a moot discussion for reasons I've gone into exhaustively on entirely too many occasions to count. CONCACAF doesn't want a merger. Outside of Mexico and perhaps the USA, there's no appetite for the proposal because it's a losing idea for just about every nation but those two (and even the USA, potentially - they still struggle against Central America's elites, nevermind CONMEBOL). Any merger proposal would be opposed by at least 39 of CONCACAF's members, perhaps more. It's not politically feasible. What I'm saying is obvious, and I don't know why I have to keep repeating this. You guys cannot just pretend 90% of a region doesn't exist. The only beneficiaries and true advocates of a merger are CONMEBOL's lower-tier (Venezuela, Bolivia, Peru), and they're simply outnumbered here. The CONMEBOL elite don't want a merger (they do not need it) and neither does nearly all of CONCACAF. It isn't in their interests and it isn't happening, especially when they have already realized that they can secure most of the benefits of a merger (ex: joint tournaments) without actually merging. The powers that be are already fully aware of what I am saying, which is why they're not pushing for a full merger (even though the idea has been out there for some time). Montagliani knows it is political suicide (all of the Caribbean and Central America + his own nation will align against him - the same opposition would face Infantino were he to push this, hence his silence) and he knows it is contrary to his mandate, which is to promote the interests of a united CONCACAF. A merger is not in the best interests of CONCACAF. A merger is in the best interests of lower-tier CONMEBOL nations, Mexico, and a few fans like Nico who care more about the manufacturing of certain "orders" in global football even if it comes at the great expense of the majority of its nations (who are irrelevant in this manufactured "order"). The only remote chance of a merger would involve the splitting of CONCACAF, with the CFU and UNCAF separating and forming a new confederation to preserve their interests and representation. This isn't going to happen, because Montagliani has bet everything on his "one CONCACAF" vision and UNCAF and CFU are buying into that. Montagliani's vision focuses heavily on the CFU and UNCAF, and is designed to lock up support there long term. His new proposals (development funds, Nation's League, expanded Gold Cup, etc) are all garnering this support. A merger with CONMEBOL simply cannot coexist with this. You do not need a merger for there to be order in the Americas. That is a false dichotomy. A merger does not enhance order or organization. All your merger would accomplish is the disenfranchisement of about 3 dozen countries for the benefit of 2 or 3 (CONMEBOL's bottom tier). That is it. It's a power grab. No better organization, no superior "order". Just a disenfranchising power grab with 2 or 3 nations benefiting at the expense of the vast majority. Your "order" is just a bid to perpetuate more inequality in world football, as if things weren't bad enough. Just call it what it is and be done. 1. Nobody cares about the fact that the USA/Mexico can have cake/eat it too. The combined tournament is not only feasible organizationally and fairly easy to facilitate, but capable of generating tremendous viewership and revenue. That's all that matters. The "have cake/eat it too" argument may be a good reason for you not to like the combined tournament, but it is not a great argument against the tournament on the merits. Also, I wouldn't be so certain that the USA qualifies in a combined confederation, expansion or no expansion. 2. Anyone putting that kind of ultimatum to Africa or CONCACAF is looking to end their political career. It's a non-starter. If clubs are concerned abut wear and tear on their star players, then what you do is work with the national federations to rotate players and ensure that stars are not competing in every tournament. That is a workable solution that is already proven and is much more feasible than going head to head with the CAF and CONCACAF and putting forward ultimatums that are very clearly not in their interest (read: killing the biennial tournaments that their federations rely on to get consistent experience, revenue, and exposure as well as valuable game time). The Gold Cup will remain for a simple reason: more games. This is one of the #1 complaints of nations in the CONCACAF region and adding the combined Copa on top of everything else (Gold Cup, Carib Cup/Copa CentroAmericana, WCQs, and new Nation's League) completely addresses it. That's the objective. These federations need more games, not less. Individual players can be rested and rotated if need be, but the teams need to play. Right now, they are not playing, and that is the issue. There will be no merger because it goes against too many interests. Despite this, Centenario requests will not be rejected. Combined tournaments offer far too much upside to far too many interests to be rejected. They are inevitable, as is a more crowded FIFA calendar for CONCACAF. CONMEBOL is getting more spots with expansion. They don't need a merger to secure more spots. FIFA does not need a merger to "pacify CONMEBOL fans". Three points as to how they can (and will) turn this down: 1. The CONMEBOL elite don't need it (it means more trouble for them with no actual benefit). 2. CONMEBOL would lose political control over itself (the Caribbean would run CONMECAF through sheer numbers, especially with UNCAF allies + Canada). 3. CONMEBOL teams would be forced to embrace small nations who don't add much to their confederation competitively or financially. Taking on the USA and Mexico might sound appealing - welcoming Jamaica, Belize, and Grenada does not. CONMEBOL is better off without them and they know this - taking them on is not worth the marginal benefit of giving Venezuela and Peru better odds of WC qualification, as it means higher travel costs, lower quality competition for their teams, and greater financial burden (combined with the political reality that said small nations would actually be running the new combined confederation and lording it over the likes of Brazil and Argentina thanks to their sheer numbers). CONMEBOL also knows that they can get the benefits of a merger (games with Mexico and the USA) without merging (via combined tournaments), so they'll do that instead. A merger offers no upside for the confederation overall. That's the problem. CONCACAF is not wanted (and, even if they were wanted, CONCACAF is certainly not willing). You don't seem to understand how the politics work here. The interests you have to sell here are in the CFU and UNCAF. That is where the numbers are. FIFA is a democracy. The numbers have the control. If you can't get the numbers, you get no action. Every nation in the CFU and UNCAF (plus Canada) will oppose this because a merger is not in their interests - as you have said here, the whole idea is to guarantee just enough berths for all of CONMEBOL, the USA, and Mexico, which excludes everyone else. They know they're excluded and screwed with this state of affairs and they will not back it given their much better alternatives (stay in CONCACAF and have a realistic shot at getting one of 6+ berths, plus youth WC spots, etc). If you cannot convince them, it doesn't matter that you've convinced CONMEBOL + US and Mexico. You lose. Also, convincing CONMEBOL will be difficult.Bigger teams have every reason to oppose a merger, as it offers them no real benefit. After the expansion to 48, CONMEBOL is projected to have 6 berths. The biggest bone you're offering to CONMEBOL to support your proposal now is the idea that there will be enough berths to guarantee all of the region qualifies. That is a bone that only appeals to CONMEBOL's bottom feeders, who would have a harder time making it to the region's top 6. For power teams that regularly reach those heights, there is nothing really to gain from a merger - their qualification odds are the same, and the costs of a merger (outlined earlier) are high to them. It is a non-starter. They'll break completely, and they will do so quickly and unequivocally. This is a proposal that would completely destroy their competitive futures and leave only Mexico with a realistic chance of consistently maintaining competitiveness. Mexico is a rival to these nations, not a leader - they are not going to follow Mexico into oblivion (for only Mexico's benefit) just because Mexico is Mexico. They are looking out for their own interests. A merger is not in their interests - it might be in Mexico's interests, but not theirs. It would be no help to them at all. Their alternative is to stay in CONCACAF and compete for 6+ berths, while also having regular confederation tournaments (Gold Cups) and other things to aspire to. The alternative offers them more investment and exposure to better competition on a consistent basis (via expanded Gold Cups, Nations Leagues, and the proposed Combined COPA). This proposal is far worse than that alternative - they have no competitive future in CONMECAF and they don't really gain anything except the chance to be perpetually invisible doormats with no hope of ever seeing a World Cup again. This is a complete loser for them. Just admit that. I don't see why it is that pro-merger people feel the need to pretend that the idea benefits anyone but Mexico, the USA, and a few CONMEBOL bottomfeeders. It is very obvious that this proposal is a total negative for the Caribbean and Central America. There's no point in pretending otherwise - you are not fooling anybody.