Copa America historical all-star teams

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by Vegan10, May 3, 2016.

  1. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    And so the creative 1980s-1990s attacking midfielders of Maradona and Francescoli were chosen.

    Let’s start with Francescoli, featured in 1983, 1987, 1989 and 1995. El Gráfico player of the tournament in 1995 and voted by South America’s panel of correspondents as player of the tournament in 1995. Retrospectively the player of the tournament in 1983, but uncertain if that would have been the choice had there existed a panel of voters back then.

    Both 1987 and 1989 Uruguay triumphed or ended in second place but Francescoli did not shine and received mixed grades in Argentina’s newspapers. He wasn’t a part of the best XI in either event, according to El Gráfico and Don Balón. But he’s one of only a few players that have won 3 Copa America’s in history. He wasn’t particularly spectacular in any event but his overall body of work makes him a serious contender in his position.

    I can superficially understand the panel of voters and how they reached their conclusions: 3 gold medals and one silver medal in Francescoli’s cabinet. However, with the exception of 1995 (where it was in general a unanimous decision) he was outperformed by teammate Ruben Sosa in 1989 and was virtually a nonfactor in 1987 getting sent off in the final. There is 1983 though and his important goal in the finals but there again it’s uncertain how well he played overall in a different format and system.

    Next up Maradona...
     
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  2. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    Maradona narrowly edged Carlos Valderrama in the attacking midfield position by just one vote. He featured in 1979, 1987 and 1989.

    He was voted by reporters that covered the 1987 event as 3rd best performer and included in El Gráfico’s ideal team. In 1979 he received very good grades from El Gráfico (or specifically vs Brazil with the Brazilian press also praising him) but only featured in two matches since Argentina didn’t take the competition seriously, opting to use Maradona at the FIFA youth World Cup in Japan. In 1989 he had a weak tournament (probably his weakest individually receiving average grades in the Argentinian tabloids) and didn’t feature in any all-star squad.

    The panel of voters understood that his participation in 3 Copa Americas was enough to include him although he was not successful.

    Considering that Valderrama was his only real challenge at the position of enganche or creative midfielder, it was arbitrarily decided to include him as being one of the biggest names in world football.

    I think in historical terms there was more merit to include other attacking midfielders from previous generations but the voters have opted to only choose what was captured on film from 1966 onwards.
     
  3. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Carlos Valderrama and not just relative to his specific role but rather as a player overall, is one of the most consistent and influential Copa America players of all time; his performances against Argentina and Brazil were always good, he clearly reserved his best for the best opponents. Diego Maradona is widely considered a top 3 all time great, but as a Copa America talent, Maradona frankly does not hold a candle to Valderrama...

    In fact, Argentina was arguably a better Copa America team without Maradona on the team; Argentina won Copa America 1991 (Chile) and 1993 (Ecuador). With Maradona, Argentina couldn't even finish in 3rd place in a tournament that was played at Argentina 1987. With Maradona, Argentina was thoroughly mediocre at Copa America 1989, played at Brazil, and as such an opportunity for Maradona to win the Copa in Brazil, which would've gone a long way in terms of compensating for Argentina's humiliating 4th place finish at Argentina 1987; and it also hurts Maradona 1989 that his worst performance of that Copa came precisely against Brazil.

    In conclusion: Valderrama was categorically superior as a Copa America legend... Valderrama elevated Colombia, Colombia was generally perceived as the most beautiful style of football in large part thanks to Valderrama's exquisite play in midfield; on the other hand, Maradona not only failed to elevate Argentina (even when enjoying home court advantage at Copa 1987), but there is a good argument to be made that Argentina was a better and more practical Copa team without Maradona. As usual, the best players of the Copa America, best players of the World Cup... are always conveniently rated on the basis of their overall legacy and not at all exclusively on the basis of Copa America form, World Cup form, etc. Which is why such lists are generally pointless and misleading. Maradona the Copa America great. Paolo Maldini the World Cup great.
     
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  4. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    Maradona definitively does not deserve to be a Copa America historical all-star. Actually, far from it.
     
  5. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011

    Here’s the issue: in the past 40 years apart from Valderrama what other candidate makes a strong case at the enganche or creative midfield position ? Riquelme ? Aguinaga ? Leo Rodriguez ? I can make a case for Leo Rodriguez but who else ?

    The truth is those positions in the past 40 years didn’t produce absolute locks. Francescoli’s silverware backs him up the most as a lock in one of those two positions but who else ?

    I think the panel of voters looked down the list and hit a snag. They realized that few legitimate choices deserved to be included and the most appropriate candidates boiled down to Francescoli, Maradona and Valderrama.
     
  6. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    And so we are left with probably the most competitive position: the forwards. Lots of candidates here. The panel chose Ronaldo and Batistuta. Other candidates like Messi or Pelé received some votes but far from the chosen nominees.

    The case of Ronaldo: 1995, 1997 and 1999 appearances.

    A substitute player in 1995 that received garbage-time minutes at the tender age of 18.

    In 1997 he received mixed match reviews from Spanish newspapers like Mundo Deportivo (clearly the star vs Paraguay in the quarterfinals but subdued vs Peru and Bolivia in the semifinals and final despite scoring a decisive goal vs the Bolivians. In a star-studded team, Ronaldo was voted player of the tournament.

    In 1999 he scored again in the finals but was overshadowed by his teammate Rivaldo as the star of the tournament. It must be said that he was not included in the ideal XI, according to Mundo Deportivo. Also the 1997 and 1999 championships were deemed as extremely devalued with Argentina and various teams not fielding their best players.

    For the past 40 years the nomination of Ronaldo is a valid one but was he really a better choice over Rivaldo ? Zamorano ? Rubén Sosa ? Luis Hernández ? Bebeto or Eduardo Vargas ?

    Of all-time, I have no doubt that there’s at least 5 forwards that deserved more recognition like Manuel Seoane, Norberto Méndez, Zizinho, Varela or Moreno.

    Will get to Batistuta soon.
     
  7. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
  8. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    And to the final choice in the forward category. Batistuta featured in 1991, 1993 and 1995. This is one of the strongest choices in the forward position from the past 40 years and matches up well against any formidable top forward in Copa America’s history. In every edition he was included by El Gráfico in the ideal starting lineup.

    Of all the candidates chosen he’s arguably the strongest lock in my opinion. Match winner in the finals of 1993 vs one of Mexico’s greatest generation of players, pivotal in breaking Colombia in the final round of 1991; scorer of important goals vs Brazil and Chile in that same competition. Probably the best player for Argentina in the 1995 event with top grades in the group stages, scorer vs Brazil in the quarterfinals, which had it not been for a hand ball from Brazil’s Tulio, which led to a 2-2 draw and subsequent elimination from the penalty spots, Argentina may have gone on to the finals and won three championships in a row in the 1990s.

    Argentina have not been able to reproduce another striker that instilled fear into defenders (Crespo was not in his class) and it’s been 26 years since their last major trophy, which must be said was thanks in great part to Batistuta’s capacity in front of goal.
     
  9. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Which one was the strongest Brazil team of 1991 - 1995 do you think? Would have been odd to have Mexico as South American champion, though in terms of quality they were not out of sorts.
     
  10. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    That’s a tricky one. Brazil were transitioning in 1991 with Falcao as manager. He was viewed as a failure and people wanted Tele Santana back. Then later in 1993 with Parriera appointed and aided by Mario Zagalo, the Brazilian people were still not happy.

    1991 had talent like Neto (a brilliant free kick specialist but tremendously intermittent throughout 90 minutes), a young Cafu and Branco. Their defensive backline was pretty much the core that won WC94 but up front they had issues. Careca was there but suffered from injuries and rarely played. It wasn’t their strongest lineup that they could’ve mustered.

    1993 was a very resisted team. The skill of Zinho and Edmundo undeniable but missing Bebeto (probably Brazil’s top in-form forward in Europe at the time — Careca was rested and Romário injured and at odds with the coaching staff). The goalkeeper spot was an issue, they kept rotating using 3 different goalies until finally settling with Zetti. Their fullbacks were Cafu and Roberto Carlos but up front relied mostly on Muller, a player that never quite hit the heights of his club form at São Paulo.

    If you go by results the 1995 team was the strongest, never lost a match but obviously favored by Tulio’s handball or more than likely would have been eliminated by Argentina. The backline was solid, most of the WC94 defenders were there, Dunga was in the midfield, the creative role was handed to Juninho, who was viewed as a promising prospect, Edmundo was their main striker. But something still wasn’t right and they got to the final thanks to officials that favored them against Argentina (how ironic) with a blatant handball that wasn’t called when Argentina had a 2-1 lead with 10 minutes remaining.



    Personally the 1993 side probably was closer in flair to the essence of Brazilian football but it had alarming cracks in many spots. The 1995 side probably the most difficult to beat though.
     
  11. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    Just for the sake of trivia, I’ve stated how Messi and Maradona had their weakest NT tournaments at the Copa America level and how eerie that it happened in Brazil.

    The final balance according to the Argentinian newspaper of Clarin is a final average grade of Messi at 5,83 and Maradona during his time at 6,00.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cl...ores-peores-copa-america_0_zZCqRe25n.amp.html

    It must be noted to the younger generation of fans that Argentina in 1989 were criticized for not taking that tournament seriously and Bilardo, Argentina’s coach, stated that all he cared for was to use the competition as a springboard of preparation for the 1990 World Cup. In addition, Maradona, just like Messi, was burned out after a very long season in Europe and in Maradona’s case carrying an injury. Nevertheless it was opaque, Maradona only with sporadic moments of class (notably against Uruguay and Ecuador) while Messi vs Brazil and to a lesser extent vs Chile in an inconsequential match.
     
  12. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    In today’s obsessed-stats world, Goal.com recorded Messi’s 2019 Copa America with evident decadence in his influence on the NT in another major international tournament.

    Messi recorded in 6 matches 1 goal (penalty) and 1 assist. He battled 86 duels which he won slightly over half with 46. It is a surprising statistic considering that he’s regarded as one of the greatest one-on-one masters in the game. However I pointed out in another thread that it’s more difficult to excel in South America than in Europe due to the nature of how team’s doggedly defend and how Messi is physically already on the decline. He had only 2 interceptions, which is testament of his lack of defensive coverage. He produced 210 passes with 170 on target for 81% effectiveness. 11 chances created with only 3 crosses into the box. 14 shots on goal (excluding blocked shots) with half on target. He was fouled 15 times for an average of 2.5 fouls per game.

    It was according to the press and the article below Messi’s worst tournament.

    https://www.goal.com/es-ar/noticias...iento-carrera-messi/lxddd0qej2at1o1pfi0nk4ypg
     
  13. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
  14. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    1999 El Gráfico’s every game match ratings:

    52D5220C-F501-4E57-8878-A335F3B48872.jpeg 5F27740F-87BC-4241-9389-C97D55E8AE12.jpeg 5B58DE97-4092-464D-AA77-22DF9DC3FBB7.jpeg

    Ideal first round team
    E9F16CB6-3EC6-4311-B6B3-37DEDBED7815.jpeg 9891178E-9EB1-489B-82AE-EF1EB27491B4.jpeg 1E8C5D0E-0D6C-4E8C-95BB-AE56E215FAF7.jpeg A0E30F21-CE5D-4B85-AC4D-383B9AD66579.jpeg 97364EE9-AE58-4DD8-BE98-09CAB4B4A602.jpeg E536222B-F766-446A-96A5-E6A98CFBC078.jpeg

    Best player: Rivaldo E9295A9E-68B4-4D8D-84C2-E35DCDD3DF6B.jpeg
     
  15. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    1997 El Gráfico’s every game match ratings:

    AF8F9F56-8D21-430C-8E04-089F90B34980.jpeg 76F82383-38E8-4BF3-B202-D9CDD4EC3A1C.jpeg 1038C67F-B081-4457-BE00-E1AED5961C94.jpeg 89F4BCF0-EC09-45C3-8CB0-6444893FC6EB.jpeg A7A4EF92-9617-4872-ABC3-F1957E565C55.jpeg 5A6D1814-B6BD-4553-AA01-8A90BD8E5B28.jpeg B99FBA2C-43A5-4254-AC6B-648B497588B8.jpeg 1BE53C9D-67AB-4033-B9E4-D94936E2CED8.jpeg

    Best player: Luis Hernandez
    89AAC4CE-4B75-4B93-A924-490CF5AAD106.jpeg
     
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  16. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    #141 Vegan10, Aug 20, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2019
    In regards to Ronaldo: it’s evident that his 1999 tournament was his best with relatively good reviews but in 1997 it was average at best and up until 1999 it was uncertain if the hype surrounding him was with merit.

    In any event, in an all-time all-star list it’s somewhat generous that he was given a top vote and undoubtedly arguable if he deserved to be chosen.

    Edit: In 13 CA matches he was chosen man of the match 3 times, according to El Gráfico, and only once in a KO round.

    Grades

    1995
    Ecuador (not rated)

    1997
    Costa Rica 8
    Colombia 4
    Mexico 6
    Paraguay 7
    Peru 5
    Bolivia 6

    Average 6,00

    1999
    Venezuela 7
    Mexico 6
    Chile 8
    Argentina 6
    Mexico 5
    Uruguay 8

    Average 6,66
     
  17. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    El Gráfico 1991 match grades

    CB1FA2C0-1545-446C-899D-A555F5FB9E69.jpeg B021FDA5-921E-4E22-9E68-C54D5B0042D6.jpeg A28CC529-EA8F-44F6-B99E-924258E2F5B5.jpeg 593BCCC4-ED80-4BB3-9913-F100595D49C5.jpeg AC1640BC-354B-401F-9190-63F2F7BF7A7D.jpeg AC1640BC-354B-401F-9190-63F2F7BF7A7D.jpeg 073212F0-A820-4616-94BA-2EA72B2B8429.jpeg 21A12498-3F42-4C14-9B3E-CB45A081F203.jpeg 8D73BC21-FA98-4DF2-B762-0F50DEB84467.jpeg BB79F456-DBDF-4B3F-8C8F-4FF807446EE3.jpeg
     

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  18. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    1991 El Gráfico match ratings continued

    1FB10B94-A25E-4647-BD38-E7671988D900.jpeg 6250D503-C5CB-41CF-818C-7095B69AD0FD.jpeg 6250D503-C5CB-41CF-818C-7095B69AD0FD.jpeg 730D61FC-DE66-45C4-A1AE-B5238E8AA4A9.jpeg 1D290355-B344-422D-A2A4-C147AA0058C2.jpeg 8F1E92FB-59A3-4D75-BC93-3A43972B1447.jpeg 84BA44A0-D4A1-4ADD-A976-D8E85AA26767.jpeg 082F8DF1-D00C-4E4A-97D9-FBFEA9EBE7D8.jpeg 8D3D744A-CB92-480C-A47F-F27E2F8EBB7B.jpeg EB066D65-9A27-4AB9-AA1F-C92F628C0856.jpeg
     

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  19. Bavarian14

    Bavarian14 Member

    Bayern München
    Jun 1, 2017

    There was a legit goal disallowed at 5:22. Correct me if I'm wrong @Vegan10
     
  20. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    That is correct, mate. The last Brazilian at the far end is in line with Messi when the shot is made, keeping him onside. Obviously the linesman didn’t have VAR to verify at the time.
     
  21. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    Great stuff.

    Martin Palermo got a 2/10 - have you ever seen a 1/10 by El Grafico?
    It's really, really hard to imagine something that tops Palermo's disasterclass.

    For me it's something that comes to mind when I think about the worst performance ever.
     
  22. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    Thanks, mate. No, I haven’t or can’t recall a grade of 1/10, but it’s probable that it occurred at some point in the magazine’s history. Inclusively in that 5-0 beatdown of Argentina to Colombia in 1993 I’m not sure if it was given to any Argentinian player (I have that information somewhere but can’t remember now).
     
  23. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    https://issuu.com/elgraficoweb/docs/eg_3857_07-09-1993

    Nope, the lowest grade is only a 4. Very generous.
     
  24. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    Yes, it’s surprising given how poor they played, and the importance of the match, making Colombia look like world beaters and Valderrama making him look like the “South American Gullit”, as he was labeled in Italy.
     
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  25. msioux75

    msioux75 Member+

    Jan 8, 2006
    Lima, Peru
    I bet, that a case like that can be found in the 1960s, where performances were more irregular due to a more relax sporting life.
     

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