CONMEBOL has been bad on the field. They just haven't gotten the results. Like you said, Brazil played well enough vs Belgium .. and without some key players or off form. Colombia missed James. Uruguay missed Cavani vs France. In 2014 Argentina could have won vs Germany. In 2010 Brazil x Holland was close with each team playing better one half. Brazil could have also scored a 2nd and killed the game.
That Brazil needed PKs vs. the Dutch in 1998 is no reflection on how good or bad Brazil was vis-a-vis CONMEBOL competition. Those were FIFA rules; the defending champion was exempted from qualification. Besides, a "beatdown" in the final cannot happen without REACHING the final. Brazil reached the final in 1994, 1998, and 2002 and won the championship twice. Not too bad. How many times have other CONMEBOL teams reached the semifinal that often in the past few decades? You are conflating the value of facing challengers through WCQ with the level of other teams in CONMEBOL - if you want to move the goalposts, find another argument. Brazil rises and falls on its own merits or struggles. Argentina for example struggled considerably during WCQ for 2018 whereas Brazil with Tite went on a rampage. Argentina's circumstances, however, were immaterial to Brazil's improvement after Tite became the manager. Additionally, right now, Argentina's situation (which I view as likely to improve because some new talents have been incorporated into their team) is not going to affect Brazil's own performance in the next few years. This has nothing to do with rivalry or arrogance or anything. Every other CONMEBOL NT must do its part; that's their business. Brazil will mind its business.
I remember in the World Rivalries forum years ago, there was a South America vs Europe tally during World Cup 2010. Long story short, both continents were basically even in total points and possible points percentage. South America was ahead in teams that made it past the group stage. I'd be surprised if other world cups are much different. Europe having 13 teams always has more teams make the final stages but they also have more teams not making it out of the group stage. South America is more even. Subjectively, South America is far more consistent in their quality. Every world cup there's a few really dreadful European teams. But I honestly can't remember the last truly bad South American team. Even when they don't make it out of the group stage they're pretty decent. Maybe Bolivia in 1994?
Argentina in 2002. That team was in 2000-2001, during WCQ, what Brazil was from late 2016 until late 2017 under Tite: the faraway most competitive CONMEBOL squad. In Korea/Japan, Argentina failed to advance from the first round. That however was an anomaly, just like England out in the first round in 2014 and Germany out in the first round last year. Argentina came close to a first-round elimination in 2018, but they didn't have a cohesive team then. In 2002, they very much had a working team which just didn't do the job come crunch time - which is precisely why I call that event an "anomaly." Ecuador in 2002 as well, but they were nowhere as competitive as Argentina that year.
Brazil in WC14, the only reason they made it that far was luck and referring favoring them against Croatia, Mexico, Chile, and Colombia, ironically the once purveryors of the beautiful game resorted to desecrating the game against a Colombian team that played a brand of football that they themselves log ago abandoned. They never deserved to be so deep in the tournament, and got what was coming to them in that semifinal.
Here's a Spanish lesson to those who are fans of CONMEBOL NTs but aren't natives of those teams' respective countries: AMARGO (bitter). Understandable when the team you support wins nothing in more than 25 years and its biggest rival wins copa after copa after copa. Continue participando.
Conflating? As in fusing two separate ideas to create a new narrative? Are you sure about that term? No dude. My original idea was: Conmebol's competitive level has decreased. How does it hurt top reps in Conmebol? My take is that weaker Conmebol teams in WCQ will not prepare top teams in Conmebol for tougher games at WC level. Challenging peers will make you better. Australia knew this when it asked to move into the Asian confederation. I agree that Brazil alone cannot make other Conmebol teams better. Conmebol fans like to grab Brazil's success to compute a good performance average for the region. Take Brazil's success out of the calculation, and the picture changes dramatically.
By this line of reasoning, Brazil's 1994 and 2002 World Cup titles should never have happened. If "weak" CONMEBOL teams do not prepare "top teams" for "tougher games at World Cup level," then Brazil should have been blasted out of the stadium by Sweden or Holland or Italy or Turkey or England or Germany. Colombia and Uruguay have been quite good for a number of years now; they were widely seen as favorites, even above Brazil, to win the Copa América that just ended. And had either one of them won, it would not have surprised anybody who seriously follows these competitions. Yet in World Cup qualifying for 2018, Brazil defeated both of them - with one of them being a 1-4 rout of Uruguay in Montevideo. And with Brazil as a tough test for CONMEBOL teams, CONMEBOL teams should be well-prepared for World Cup competition. But since 2006, only UEFA has won the World Cup. Shouldn't CONMEBOL teams outside of Brazil have gone far since Brazil is there to test these teams? Minus Argentina in 2014 (and Argentina finished as the runner-up), no team got to the final. CONMEBOL NTs have to do their work and become title contenders on their own. Brazil is irrelevant to how much they develop and vice-versa. Brazil didn't win 5 World Cups because CONMEBOL competition made Brazil tough. You're thoroughly mistaken on that part and when Brazil does win its sixth World Cup (whenever that happens), it will not be because CONMEBOL competition made Brazil qualified to overcome UEFA teams in the World Cup. Brazil has defeated UEFA teams aplenty.
You just gave us 2 good examples of hard fought WCQs where Brazil ended up as world champion. WCQ Conmebol for 1994 WC: Brazil qualified along with Bolivia on Group B. Brazil was 2 points above the first eliminated team on that group. WCQ was done in 2 groups of 5 teams each. WCQ Conmebol for 2002 WC: Brazil qualified as 3rd best. Brazil was 3 points above the first eliminated team, and 13 points below the first qualified team. WCQ was done in double round-robin mode. When was the last time that Brazil became world champion?
No way. These teams were terribly disappointing because the standards were so high, but they weren't truly bad. Especially Argentina in 2002. I remember their three games and they simply couldn't put it in. England bunkered, got a PK and sat back on the lead. Sweden got bombarded the whole game but somehow pulled off the tie. Brazil in 2014 was worse, but were still way, way better than a truly bad team. I'm talking bad like Slovenia, Greece, or Serbia.
Brazil won in 1994 and in 2002 because of WCQ opponents... by finishing the group for 1994 in first place with 12 points of 15 possible points and by finishing 3rd in 2002. Right. Because Parreira's work, the team coming together, Romario delivering vs. Uruguay (and Brazil thoroughly dominating Uruguay from start to finish) didn't matter. Or because Scolari taking over, pumping new life into the team, and the team coming together enough to win enough points to qualify directly... of course that didn't matter. All that matters is because CONMEBOL had tough opponents. They were so damn tough that in 1994, only Brazil and Argentina reached the knockout round and only Brazil was left alive by the quarterfinals. They were so tough as well in 2002 to the extent that Uruguay, Ecuador, and Argentina (whose early elimination was, as I wrote, an anomaly) fell in the group stage and only Paraguay reached the round of 16 besides Brazil. Right. Brazilian talents, Brazilian coaching, Brazilian performance... none of that matters. Brazil is good because it sharpens its edge against CONMEBOL opposition.... right.
And has Australia developed since joining Asia? I’ll answer this one for you since I actually live in Australia. No it hasn’t, in fact football has gone so far backwards in this country it’s not even funny. Your argument is highly flawed.
Not true, they made it that far because they were the home team. I've said it before, Brazil is a different beast in their own home with only Germany or France being capable of beating them there. There were dodgy decisions by referees for sure but it's childish to say that is the only reason they made it that far. Blaming referees for losses is just stupid in my humble opinion. I haven't done that since I was 15.
The same can be argued from the perspective of the less competitive squads. By virtue of playing Brazil, Colombia, and Uruguay, a team like Bolivia should progressively improve; Bolivia would play 6 matches out of 18 per WCQ cycle with these teams. But why hasn't Bolivia improved, despite having had great players in recent time (Marcelo Moreno for example)?
I forgot the part that refereeing assistance was the reason Brazil had 14 shots on goal total (versus Mexico's 13 total shots), with 8 of them on target, and 4 amazing saves by Guillermo Ochoa. Cuneyt Cakir must be brought before TAS to confess his bias against Brazil in a match that ended 0-0. And if Brazil has "long ago abandoned" a "brand of football" that Brazil once played, at least it is Brazil which won a special place in the hearts of millions of soccer fans everywhere for the Jogo Bonito with which it won World Cup glory in decades past. At least it wasn't Brazil whose soccer became notorious for underhanded tactics, some of which I highlighted in this very thread. The post you replied to reflects the miserable and bitter attitude of someone who carries a huge chip on one's shoulder. Hey, I understand - not everyone is so difficult to beat on home ground the way Brazil is, as you pointed out.
Referees can and have affected the outcome of matches, you see it all the time in the Champions League for example. Also, I didn't only point out to the referees, Brazil also had an incredible amount of luck, including Chile scoring an own goal and hitting the horizontal in the very last minute of overtime. Against Colombia, they made a demolition derby of the match and Colombia, despite playing some of the most beautiful football seen at any World Cup behind that bolt of lightning named James aided by great performances from Cuadrado and their fullbacks, lacked the composure to rise above it. Of course, that could have been stopped if the referee had had the capability to curtail it from the start.
GTFO ... as if Colombia were saints themselves. They committed 23 fouls themselves. And had more fouls half way through the first half. By end of 1st half the foul count was basically even (13-12). So no, it wasn't a question of the ref not setting the tone on Brazil. And the worst fouls were from Zuniga hitting Hulk with studs right on the knee (no yellow card given) and David Luiz getting an intentional kick on the his waist which wasn't called or cautioned due to continuation (could have been a red). And Zuniga's foul on Neymar wasn't even called either. Colombia had good attacking, but like I said , don't make it out like they were victims. Up to that game Colombia was the team that had committed the most fouls in the WC.
@celito don't bother... Petty and bitter posts full of nonsense about how Brazil is favored by referees and violent when in truth they know Brazil is the best team in CONMEBOL (perhaps there's hope for such posters yet )
http://www.conmebol.com/es/suspension-y-multa-para-lionel-andres-messi Messi banned for one game. Got off light.
Reportedly Messi's criticism of Copa America/Brazil bias will be dealt with next week. Like the ban Neymar received, simply ban Messi for 4 games and be done with it.
Yeah... Make Messi the bad guy and keep going... Nothing to see here... Woopieeee! Everything is fine... Let Corruptbol continue... Woohooooo... Oh boy... We need a Trump to drain the Conmebol swamp.