Copa América, Chile 2015 - General Thread [R]

Discussion in 'Brazil' started by Mengão86, May 22, 2015.

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Which team do you feel has the best chance of winning Copa America (excluding Brazil)?

Poll closed Jun 12, 2015.
  1. Argentina

    44.4%
  2. Bolivia

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. Chile

    22.2%
  4. Colombia

    22.2%
  5. Ecuador

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  6. Mexico

    11.1%
  7. Jamaica

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  8. Paraguay

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  9. Peru

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  10. Uruguay

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  11. Venezuela

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. Brasitusa

    Brasitusa Member+

    AC Milan
    Italy
    May 14, 2014
    Club:
    New York City FC
    I hear you. Her goal from midfield was what Pelé tried in 1970 against Uruguay and couldn't do. Epic. And she is my favorite player in the USWNT and has always been, and people heavily criticized her in the beginning of the tournament; I was one of the only ones to say "That's OK, I love you, Carli." Then, the coach pushed her up and got her into a more attacking position, and boom, she exploded; best player of the tournament, and an epic hat trick with one of the most beautiful goals in the *entire history* of soccer. There you go, Carli, you're my girl! :inlove:
     
  2. Brasitusa

    Brasitusa Member+

    AC Milan
    Italy
    May 14, 2014
    Club:
    New York City FC
    Of course he didn't deserve it. He scored *one* goal from a PK, and gave some assists against a despondent Paraguay (he can shine against minnows or when he gets a lot of help from his mates at Barça, and that's about it). Then as usual he disappeared in the final. To call *that* the MVP is a complete travesty. If he weren't famous and people were just coldly and impartially analyzing performances, they'd say "that guy #10 for Argentina was a middle-of-the-pack decent playmaker at times with some good assists and generally speaking had a good tournament, but played like crap in the final. Still, we can say he was sort of in the top 20 or 25 players in the tournament; would be a bit higher if he only had some heart and showed some effort."

    Because it's Messi, the supposed GOAT (Not!!!), they tried to give him the MVP. He was dignified enough to decline this time. He should have declined in the World Cup too, when he was even less instrumental for the team than in Copa América. Greatest of All Time my a$$. A very good club player when the entire system favors him, period. Otherwise, no leadership, no stamina, no energy, no mental strength, no heart. Why in the hell is he the captain? Mascherano is much better than Messi for the national team. He will die for the team and will pull his heart out of his chest if it helps the team. Messi on the other hand will walk around and do some of his little bursts when he feels like it. What a joke, GOAT!

    Heard from one of the level-headed Argentine posters in their forum: most people in Argentina who know what they are saying, understand that Maradona has a much better claim at GOAT than Messi, but the young fanboys who never saw Maradona play keep yelling "Messi! GOAT!!!"

    Now even the Argies are starting to feel a bit fed up with him. The emperor is naked.

    His last chance to prove himself at the international level is the 2018 World Cup. Will Argentina win it? I really doubt it. I think they've squandered their best chance already, and in 2018 this generation will be in frank decline, and they will be a middle-of-the-table team that won't even get to the semis.

    Copa América 2019, as a pre-retirement consolation prize? Again, probably not. This generation doesn't seem to be capable of winning anything. With the general evolution and leveling out of the field we've seen among the other South American countries, there is no guarantee that Argentina can even win the Copa América 2019. Again, they squandered 2007 when they were in full force and got humiliated by a mediocre Brazil, and now squandered their best chance by losing to Chile. 2019, they will probably be less good and the other countries will be better (including Brazil, I hope, if we get some renovation).

    I'm predicting that Messi will retire without ever winning a trophy with the senior Argentine national team, and in the history of soccer he will eventually be cut down to his actual size (together with other talented players who never won anything like Crujiff and Sócrates, but below those who did win World Cups, like Pelé, Maradona, Ronaldo Nazário, Zidane, and Beckenbauer).

    Why do I get a bit revved up about this? Do I hate Messi? No. Actually I have no reason to hate him. He never really inflicted any pain to the Brazilian senior national team. I'd have more reason to hate Maradona. I don't even fear Messi. I know that come the really important games, he'll choke. And actually I kind of respect him for being a talented dribbler and playmaker and not a diver or violent player, and not getting into off-field issues - e.g., substance abuse, like other greats such as Maradona, Garrincha, George Best, etc.

    My pet peeve is with the fanboys who keep shouting GOAT!!! That's the part that irritates me. They show profound misunderstanding of the history of soccer.
     
    MerlinRM repped this.
  3. Brasitusa

    Brasitusa Member+

    AC Milan
    Italy
    May 14, 2014
    Club:
    New York City FC
    It's not only the website posters at Olé. The senior editor for the print edition of the newspaper wrote a scathing editorial putting Messi down.
     
  4. Lockeroom

    Lockeroom Member

    Apr 11, 2008
    I thought that Brazil 2006 will be something like Brazil 1982 or Pelé´s era teams. Ronaldinho was the king of the football World, the same like Messi is now, Ronaldo, Juninho, Adriano, Kaká, young diamond Robinho, Roberto Carlos and many others - what a team!!!!!!!!! But it was a big disappointment and the end of an era of Brazilian dominance 1994 - 2002. Dunga´s team at the World Cup 2010 wasn´t bad at all, but they played a similar tactics like Lippi´s Italy or Domenech´s France at the WC 2006 - based on counteratttacks.
     
  5. Century's Best

    Century's Best Member+

    Jul 29, 2003
    USA
    A thought on "GOAT..." here in the New York area, the word "goat" is used as a slang for a player who underperformed and therefore contributed to his team's defeat. I first saw it in 1993, when the New York Knicks battled the Michael Jordan Chicago Bulls in the playoffs, and in one epic game, John Starks (many of you wouldn't know him) dunked on Jordan. That game, Starks was on fire, and Jordan underperformed.

    Local papers called Jordan the "goat" of the game the next day.

    But if "goat" is to be used as "greatest of all time," then I agree 100% that Messi isn't it and that he just walks around the pitch. Doesn't make him insignificant (obviously - he's an incredible talent), but he isn't the best ever.

    Not even close.
     
    Brasitusa repped this.
  6. Century's Best

    Century's Best Member+

    Jul 29, 2003
    USA
    I agree that Mascherano is hungrier than Messi. I said that much in the CONMEBOL Copa América forums.

    In 2014, I wrote here that Messi's best chance was 2014. While he'll be "only" 31 in 2018 and still extremely competitive, he'll be beginning the end of his career, and the great generation his country had during the 2000s is now aging fast. They'll need to rebuild, and fast, given WCQ is around the corner. I personally don't think Argentina will win it in 2018, but I could be wrong.

    Hopefully not, as that tournament will in Brazil.

    I wouldn't mind it that prediction comes true, but of course because I want Brazil to win every time.
     
  7. Guigs

    Guigs Member+

    Dec 9, 2011
    Club:
    Vasco da Gama Rio Janeiro
    When I tell my friends from Brazil that Jordan wasn't always viewed as the greatest ever, they laugh at me... because I constantly make comparisons between Jordan and LeBron to them.

    Saying LeBron pretty much can take any crappy team to a final and give them a chance, while Jordan had an extremely solid team when he started winning.

    The other thing is that Jordan was considered a loser before he started his winning streak. They don't believe me.
     
  8. omajac

    omajac Member+

    Feb 9, 2002
    East Orange, New Jersey, USA
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    I heard LeBron say the US' 12 Gold medal team could've taken the Dream Team of '92!!!:ROFLMAO: Shit if any of that team dreamed(pun intended) of beating the Dream Team they better wake up and apologize!!
     
  9. Guigs

    Guigs Member+

    Dec 9, 2011
    Club:
    Vasco da Gama Rio Janeiro
    12 had Duncan right?
     
  10. omajac

    omajac Member+

    Feb 9, 2002
    East Orange, New Jersey, USA
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Nope!!
     
  11. Emperor Adriano

    Emperor Adriano Member+

    Jun 17, 2009
    Utica NY (the refugee city)
    Club:
    Santos FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    this is why I can't support woman's soccer. The comparisons to men's are just beyond brutal.
     
  12. Brasitusa

    Brasitusa Member+

    AC Milan
    Italy
    May 14, 2014
    Club:
    New York City FC
    Sure, to start with, there is a very significant difference in the power of a shot and speed the ball travels to the goal. The ladies of course by nature are not as strong as men. But some of them are quite skilled and a pleasure to watch. Some of them are also cute. I like to watch when it is an important worldwide competition like the WWC or the Olympics, and it is neat because in women's soccer the United States actually got a hugely competitive team while the USMNT is a mid-table team. But of course, watching the WWC around the same time of Copa América was comparable to watching the MLS vs. the Uefa Champions League. Still, it is nice to see the ladies trying their best and winning. The first 16 minutes against Japan were really extremely entertaining and beautiful with some fabulous plays. What's not to like?
     
  13. NotreDameFlamengo

    Jul 25, 2011
    Raleigh, NC
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    I'm in the same boat. I love watching the Women's WC and Olympics, but just can't watch anything else.
     
  14. Kaka10725

    Kaka10725 Member+

    Jun 1, 2007
    The goalkeeping for that half-field goal is one of the reasons I can't take the women's game seriously. I applaud the move she did prior and the audacity to try that but it should of never gone in.
     
    Emperor Adriano repped this.
  15. omajac

    omajac Member+

    Feb 9, 2002
    East Orange, New Jersey, USA
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Im sorry, but there have been men goalkeepers over the years and even this year in the EPL have given up similar goals!!!

    I
     
  16. Emperor Adriano

    Emperor Adriano Member+

    Jun 17, 2009
    Utica NY (the refugee city)
    Club:
    Santos FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    The comparisons are what's not to like. Hearing Colin cowherd talk about woman's soccer and compare it to the men's game is just mind knumbing. Him and bill Simmons think the men's game should have a World Cup every 2 or 3 years, men and woman.. It's not even a mls to champions lg comparisons a good u16 boys team would beat that woman's team. It's just lame people only follow it during the wc and America loves to win so not surprising to see all the support/ratings. The woman's World Cup has the prestige of bandminton to me just being honest. Only a few countries put time , money, and effort. I just wonder how many people would care or watch if USA woman's team was 16th in the world. Let's be real the men's team accomplish this summer was better than the woman's, it's unpopular but true.
     
  17. Emperor Adriano

    Emperor Adriano Member+

    Jun 17, 2009
    Utica NY (the refugee city)
    Club:
    Santos FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Complete joke.
     
  18. Brasitusa

    Brasitusa Member+

    AC Milan
    Italy
    May 14, 2014
    Club:
    New York City FC
    For me it is not a question of comparing. I have no doubt that the men's game is much more exciting and with vastly better skills and athleticism. When I say "Carli scored from the midfield while Pelé couldn't" I say it tongue-in-cheek. Of course I know that Pelé is a thousand times a better footballer than Carli. So, I watch the ladies' games for what they are; not as a comparison to a much more skillful level.

    See, sometimes I attend in person the games of the local franchise of the NASL (they are lame but I think it is important to support them). I know that they are much less skillful than the MLS which is much less skillful than the Brasileirão which is much less skillful than the Champions League. Still, the teams at play are kind of level so the games can be competitive and entertaining. The same is true of even a high school game.

    So when I attended a high school game (when my son was playing) I didn't want to know that a college team would beat them easily and an NASL team would beat the college team and an MLS team would beat the NASL team and a Brasileirão team would beat the MLS team and a Champions League team would beat the Brasileirão team. I enjoy each level for what it is. Basically there is room for everybody. It doesn't matter to me that a U16 boys team could beat the USWNT. They don't play against each other. The ladies play against other ladies of relatively comparable level, and the U16 boys play against other U16 boys.

    Still, we can't say that the success of the USWNT is not beneficial to the sport of soccer in the United States. The TV ratings went off the roof, and some of the discussions by female fans in the specific forum were actually very insightful, showing that certain segments of the US population are really getting into soccer in a more sophisticated way. So, it increases exposure to the sport, general acceptance of it as a mainstream sport, and increases viewership and fandom. This indirectly benefits the men's game too. The more soccer becomes popular in America, the better for the USMNT as well.

    To people who say "I won't watch the women's game because it is not as good as the men's game" I would ask, why do we all watch the Brasileirão, then? We shouldn't, because Barcelona and Real Madrid and Bayern Munich don't play there, right? No, wrong. We still enjoy the Brasileirão even though our teams and players don't have stars of the same magnitude of the ones who play for the rich European clubs. So, if we can enjoy different levels when it's the men's game, why can't we give the same discount and enjoy the women's game?
     
    omajac and astinus4 repped this.
  19. omajac

    omajac Member+

    Feb 9, 2002
    East Orange, New Jersey, USA
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    And to compare the US men's team performance last year to the US women's team winning THEIR THIRD World Cup is like comparing Bruce Li to the great Bruce Lee!!:x3:
     
  20. Emperor Adriano

    Emperor Adriano Member+

    Jun 17, 2009
    Utica NY (the refugee city)
    Club:
    Santos FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    You are challenged... If you read my post only 5 or 6 countries even put any care or money into their woman's team. Try 220 for men's...
     
  21. omajac

    omajac Member+

    Feb 9, 2002
    East Orange, New Jersey, USA
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    #971 omajac, Jul 10, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2015
    No I'm not challenged!! I just happen to view women on equal level as men!! I don't know maybe it was just my upbringing in that which makes me so 'challenged'!!

    I did read your post!!
     
  22. Kaka10725

    Kaka10725 Member+

    Jun 1, 2007
    There are levels of the men's game I can rarely sit through 10 minutes let alone the 90 minutes. The overall level of technical ability and much slower pace of the women game just isn't enjoyable for me.
     
  23. Emperor Adriano

    Emperor Adriano Member+

    Jun 17, 2009
    Utica NY (the refugee city)
    Club:
    Santos FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    #973 Emperor Adriano, Jul 10, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2015
    So is it harder to win against less competition? When 200 people are apying for a job and they all have degrees and great work histories isn't that job harder to get than the same job with just 5 serious candidates? It has nothing to do with feminism or my views of woman, it's just basic math. The only reason why the USA cares is because the USA wins at it. No one in Brazil cares about the wwc, the ratings were atrocious. Just a matter of opinion I guess, I just don't view winning the Woman's world cup as a big deal.
     
  24. omajac

    omajac Member+

    Feb 9, 2002
    East Orange, New Jersey, USA
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Yes it is a difference of opinion! But I hope that Brazil gets behind its women's team in Rio 2016! Not just the soccer team, but the volleyball and basketball teams as well!!
     
  25. Brasitusa

    Brasitusa Member+

    AC Milan
    Italy
    May 14, 2014
    Club:
    New York City FC
    Oh, the women's volleyball team is popular all right, and to a smaller degree, also the basketball team. It's the football team that nobody cares about, which is a pity, I think.
     

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