Containment zone: the Klinnsman / Donovan fault line

Discussion in 'USA Men' started by DHC1, Dec 2, 2018.

  1. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    I also agree that super-sub would’ve been a nice role for him but I think that super-sub absolutely does have to “mind his manners” as we’ve discussed.
     
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  2. juveeer

    juveeer Member+

    Aug 3, 2006
    D
    Brad Davis did not start and play mutiple 90 minute games. He was never going to and he knew his role when he signed up.

    How do we know LD wasn't offered that role?

    Anyway, I would have done it that way. That doesn't mean everyone would.

    JK had a lot of experience with LD, so perhaps JK already knew he didn't want to deal with an LD that was not starting. It was an instant "second guess" from everyone if he didn't start and the US lost, so maybe he just thought it was better to take the hit prior to the tourney that having to react to it before and after every game.
     
  3. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Brad Davis started against Germany when we weren't sure of advancing and he was poor. I can't find anyone that said a kind word about his performance.

    Considering the marketing money tied into appearing at the World Cup, the fact that his family had plans to join him etc there is no chance LD blew off an offer to be on the roster.
     
  4. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    You don't think there's any chance that LD was told that he needed to keep a low profile if he wanted to make the team and then proceeded to speak anyway?

    I'm not saying it definitely happened but it absolutely could have been the case IMO
     
  5. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You are stretching credulity to excuse a stupid choice by a bad manager.

    You keep arguing facts not in evidence. The following is stuff we know.

    Brad Davis was old, one footed and slow.

    Zusi was slow and mostly non threatening.

    ArJo carried multiple injuries rendering him largely unavailable for practice or games.
     
  6. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    I have never stated it was fact.

    The key fact I keep pointing out is that our results were at least as good as expected and quite frankly better than the odds in Brazil, despite cutting LD.

    That's the most important fact.
     
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  7. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    We aren't going to agree. I have been clear that a positive result doesn't cleanse the stink of bad decisions.

    The reason for this is that eventually a bad process catches up to you. Being satisfied with results is how Klinsman got a second cycle.
     
  8. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    #108 DHC1, Feb 8, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2019
    I am fully agreed that JK shouldn't have gotten a second term. Really no one should unless we win the WC.....

    In the end, you think the decision to cut LD was irredeemable and there's nothing that could sway you from that perspective as you judge by decision making. It's a bit circular but you are certainly entitled to it.

    I think that managers' decisions are judged by their results and we didn't pay one in this instance. Did we bet a yo and just get lucky? Doesn't really matter as we got away with it.

    Btw, I appreciate the reasonable tone in our back-n-forth even if we clearly disagree.
     
  9. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I only think the decision became irredeemable once it was clear that Davis, Zusi, Wondo, Green and Arjo were pretty useless. The Arjo injury situation made it malpractice. We were down to one healthy forward when Altidore limped off the field.

    Jozy is my favorite player but I wouldn't have counted on his legs in 2014.

    If the team had played better I would have tipped my cap. That's not what happened.
     
  10. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    FYI. I edited my post after you replied to include this:

    Btw, I appreciate the reasonable tone in our back-n-forth even if we clearly disagree
     
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  11. juveeer

    juveeer Member+

    Aug 3, 2006
    One game.

    There is no way anyone would have expected, or complained about it, if he didn't start games we lost.

    Au contraire, most would blame THE COACH FOR STARTING BRAD, if we lost when he was starting and a guy like LD was sitting.

    The situations are in no way comparable. Bard Davis was viewed more equivalent to Wondo on that roster than LD.
     
  12. juveeer

    juveeer Member+

    Aug 3, 2006
    I actually think it was more indefensible for JK not to bring an actual back up for Jozy given the way they planned to play in that WC. Some would argue that was Wondo, but clearly it wasn't as he was not used when Jozy went down.

    So he either should have brought a Jozy back up OR had a practiced Plan B on how to play.

    THAT to me was his biggest failure at Brasil.

    But we still beat the odds regardless, and you can't honestly take that way from him.
     
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  13. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    There was no back up for Jozy in our pool just like there wasnt ones for Bradley, Dempsey and Jones. If we spent time having four plan Bs, there wouldn't have been time to work on plan A.

    Plan A was really Plan B that he had to start coming up with when another player who didnt have a replacement didnt show for qualifiers. We just didnt have the depth with losing key players.
     
  14. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is why you don't shoot yourself in the foot by leaving LD. It was malpractice. I don't understand why people defend him.
     
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  15. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    he learned through qualifying that he had a solid team without him. it proved to be true at the world cup. I dont understand why people dont understand that.
     
  16. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You can't be serious. Our forward "options" were Altidore for 20 minutes Arjo who was hurt, Wondo and Green, who JK didn't trust to play until it was YOLO time against Belgium. That's your solid team?

    I get that you don't think much of Landon but this is silly. This isn't Italy deciding which champions league player to ditch, this was a bad manager hurting his team by leaving one of his best players at home for no good reason.
     
  17. truefan420

    truefan420 Member+

    May 30, 2010
    oakland
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Should LD have been there yea. However, one thing to keep in mind. If he is supposed to be a super sub and things don’t get well, whether the player does anything or not, the media can make it a distraction for the team. He had a very large profile. Yes I’d have brought him but I understand how a coach wouldn’t want LD to be a distraction mid tournament to his side. LD wasn’t exactly towing the line either. And if memory is right his form at the time wasn’t prime either. He was still working his way back.
     
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  18. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    1) The American soccer media isn't that fearsome.
    2) we didn't see his form because the cuts were before any friendlies.
    3) we then saw in MLS that he was 90 minutes fit and in sharp form.
     
  19. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    1) you know there is other media at the world cup
    2) NA
    3) Lots of myths about LD's 2014 season. He had 7 G&A in the first 15 games of the season... that is close to half of his career production. The interesting part is that 4 of them were in his first two games after being cut. That guy can really produce when motivated.

    It doesnt look like he was on form before the camp or after those first two games after being cut. In those other 13 games he had 3 assists in two games. The only game in those 15 games where there wasnt a week break he didnt start.

    Date Match Result Appearance MINS G A SHTS SOG FC FS Y R
    7/19/2014 LA @ SKC L 1-2 Started 90 0 0 0 0 1 2 0 0
    7/16/2014 NE @ LA W 1-5 Subbed on 45 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0
    7/12/2014 RSL @ LA W 0-1 Started 90 0 0 2 1 0 2 0 0
    7/04/2014 POR @ LA T 2-2 Started 90 0 1 0 0 2 2 0 0
    6/28/2014 LA @ SJ W 1-0 Started 90 0 0 3 0 3 0 1 0

    6/08/2014 CHV @ LA T 1-1 Started 90 0 0 2 1 0 0 0 0
    6/01/2014 LA @ CHI T 1-1 Started 90 1 0 1 1 2 1 1 0
    5/25/2014 PHI @ LA W 1-4 Started 83 2 1 3 2 1 0 0 0

    5/21/2014 DAL @ LA W 1-2 Unused Sub 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
    5/17/2014 LA @ HOU L 0-1 Unused Sub 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

    5/11/2014 LA @ POR T 1-1 Started 90 0 0 3 1 1 1 0 0
    5/03/2014 LA @ COL L 0-1 Started 90 0 0 5 1 1 0 0 0
    4/19/2014 LA @ VAN T 2-2 Started 90 0 0 1 1 0 0 0 0
    4/12/2014 VAN @ LA W 0-1 Started 90 0 0 3 1 1 0 0 0
    4/06/2014 LA @ CHV W 3-0 Started 90 0 2 5 1 0 2 0 0
    3/22/2014 LA @ RSL T 1-1 Started 90 0 0 0 0 2 1 0 0
    3/08/2014 RSL @ LA L 1-0 Started 90 0 0 4 1 0 1 0 0
     
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  20. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    None of that is an argument against Landon's inclusion.
     
  21. truefan420

    truefan420 Member+

    May 30, 2010
    oakland
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It’s not about being for or against it. It’s just about understanding why the decision might have been made.
     
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  22. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Yes, it is. The media distraction and impact on having a united squad very much is. Him not playing up to his ability prior to the camp is as well. The rest is an argument about how he was playing well in MLS. The other part about that is the the USMNT players were expending a significant amount more effort than LD did on stretch after being cut and his production was way down.
     
  23. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    I wasn't for it. I just understood it. I also thought it wasnt a wrong decision after we got results.
     
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  24. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I understand why the decision may have been made. I don't value those reasons. A national team manager is paid a lot of money to do the job. I don't care if he has to work with people he doesn't like.
     
  25. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The distraction argument is stupid. Professional athletes and coaches perform under indictment, with sick parents and kids but can't handle the dreaded media?

    What's really distracting is watching Brad Davis be a traffic cone. Pro athletes would rather play with bad guys who help them win. I've never heard a pro athlete say different.
     

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