Containment zone: the Klinnsman / Donovan fault line

Discussion in 'USA Men' started by DHC1, Dec 2, 2018.

  1. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Yes, I'd rather have the 2014/16 midfield, but that doesnt mean it didnt have issues that 2018 version wouldnt have had. I also think that there were alternatives to help out the 2018 midfield. I think Jones and Bradley could have been pretty effective for 45 mins or CP could have dropped into the midfield.

    I believe they are issues that Klinsmann could have figured out. You dont know that our young players werent ready to step up because Arena didnt give them a chance. Many of them looked capable in the first half of 2018 and Arena himself claimed he was going to go with youth at the WC (even though I dont believe him).

    What is wrong with my views on Donovan? He was our best player for a long time but was frustrating at times as he often didnt assert himself as such. His sabbatical created potential issues within the squad and his form/public comments made leaving him off the team a reasonable decision. Especially with how the team performed in Brazil, I dont see what is so unhinged about that. There are other reasonable views but you wont seem them from the fans that lost their minds because their idol got dumped because of his actions.
     
  2. iad_22201

    iad_22201 Member+

    Jan 2, 2009
    Washington, DC
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Most of these young players still (in 2020) haven't shown they are capable of stepping up based on what we've seen from their club careers but somehow you think they magically would have been ready a year and a half ago. I understand, you think Klinsmann is some kind of magician.

    Do you really want me to dig up the thread where you went crazy after Donovan said some nice things about the women's team on a red carpet somewhere??? Seriously, you're the last person to be calling anyone here a hater/unhinged/etc.

    Ok, I really am done now.
     
  3. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    I dont think Klinsmann is a magician but has an eye for talent and willingness to play young players in roles that they succeed. Yedlin is an example in 2014. I think all the players I suggest to be considered as starters were way ahead in June of 2018 where Yedlin was in 2014. Why do we need to look at their club performances in 2019 when we some them play international games in the first half of 2018?

    Donovan often doesnt understand the ramifications of what he says. I think it is dumb for anyone to compare the two programs. There is. Ithing to be gained and has the potential create an issue between the two groups and/or its fans. I think I may have compared it to julie foudy's obnoxious comments about the women's team carrying the program. I know quite a few people who were much more upset about foudy's comments, donovan's comments, and the women asking for equal pay for "equal play".

    The timing was very bad as well. He was just over a year removed from admitting being so angry that he rooted against the USMNT and the USMNT was just coming off a poor GC. Of course, he pissed off a lot of people three years later by cashing in on rooting for our rivals (who usually got up for games against mexico).
     
  4. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    There really isnt anything in that post that I didnt say today.. I think he looked stupid and his comments annoyed many people. The word choice was a function of things other had used in the thread.

    I dont dislike LD. I do hate his diehard fans. They are petty, generally arent that knowledgeable of the game, and were at the front of the pitch fork brigade against Klinsmann. There were things to be concerned about in 2016, but just about everything of the program and federation is worse off today.
     
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  5. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    I hesitate to bring this up as I'm not interested in the Klinsmann/MLS war but did want to understand how you think about this


    I know you've said something akin to this about Klinsmann (and I'm not a fan of his second term at all) but I'd also like to understand who the players whom were excluded from the pool were in 204-2018? What happens in this alternate universe where we don't let Herr Klinsmann return - which players were on the precipice of providing the depth that was needed to qualify?
     
  6. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    #432 DHC1, Jan 26, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2020
    Moved

    here’s what I find hypocritical in this.

    you cant get past Klinsmann cutting Donovan (for the record, I was against it) even though in the end, that team over-achieved by coming out of a very strong group. As far as you can’t understand why, I’d point you to their past relationship: Klinsmann lost one of the top coaching jobs in the world (bayern) is no small part because he used a lot of capital bringing in Landon in and telling everyone in Germany that Donovan was world class and would be an impact player at BM. There are other reasons he failed but there is no way that this wasn’t a meaningful part of why he got canned.

    unlike the standard you held Klinsmann to, you are unbelievably forgiving of both arena and Berhalter.

    here’s what arena did


    Arena was the first coach to have a consistent 2/3 MLS roster through his second tenure right after these comments.

    You see nothing problematic here but think that the exclusion of a single player by Klinsmann (whom I definitely didn’t want to have a second term) is unforgivable (my word not yours)?

    It’s clear that you think klinsmann’s sin is greater than Arena’s and I simply couldn’t disagree more vehemently.

    arena instituted a structural bias all while insulting certain Americans. It is and was disgusting and I’m embarrassed that I believed him when he lied and said he wasn’t going to be biased as coach. Look at his rosters - the bias is as plain as day - and we paid the price for it (which is not to say he’s the only one to blame for the failure in the Hex).

    I thought that Berhalter would split between the two but he’s been exactly like Arena is practice but without being upfront about it.
     
  7. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    They wont listen to any reasoning.

    Btw... I dont think think LD's third failed stint in Germany had much to do with it other than better understanding his weaknesses.

    It was much more likely to be a combination of...
    - LD not being available for the beginning of the Hex
    - JK learning that they could win without him
    - LD showing that he could play much better than he usually did with 2013 GC play
    - injuries
    - saying multiple things that went against the things he was trying to instill in the team
    - playing aweful in the March friendly.
    - LD not being in top fitness in may camp resulting in him questioning if he could start him and coming to the conclusion that he would be a distraction if he was on the bench
     
    striker repped this.
  8. Mahtzo1

    Mahtzo1 Member+

    Jan 15, 2007
    So Cal
    So, in other words, Klinsmann was right to blame Donovan for his failure at Bayern and to take out his frustration by leaving him out of the squad? That actually was part of my argument on why Donovan was left out. I felt that it was personal. When a coach puts the chances of the team behind his own personal feelings that, in my opinion, is less forgivable than a mistake.

    It isn't quite like the USMNT's roster was comparable to Bayern's. I really don't want to talk about Klinsmann right now. I am over it. I will say that a very major difference between Arena and Klinsmann is that there was no shortage of people that supported Klinsmann (ie there were two sides to the argument). I don't believe many people disagreed with anything I said about Arena. As a result, I would post once and nobody would say much (doesn't mean they agreed but at least they weren't bothered enough to respond. About the only thing I remember someone disagreeing with was once when I mentioned Klinsmann in an offhanded manner (it really wasn't even a criticism, nor was it meant as a criticism) while in the same post I was actually criticizing Arena. It was at the time when people were debating who was more at fault (Klinsmann or Arena) and some were trying to absolve Arena and place the blame on Klinsmann. I felt that Arena was the one to blame and said so in the post. I refuse to search through posts to document this. You will believe me or you won't.
     
  9. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    You really dont think donovan did anything in the 18 months prior to the WC that would make a coach consider leaving him off? I listed seven in my previous post. I will say again that the "its personal" stuff is nonsense. The only thing that was personal was the hatred for Klinsmann.
     
  10. Mahtzo1

    Mahtzo1 Member+

    Jan 15, 2007
    So Cal
    Believe it or not, Donovan is retired and Klinsmann is no longer our coach. I don't see that changing anytime soon. I saw your post. I have no interest in going over the same old arguments. We disagree about many things. I'm fine with that.
     
  11. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    you didn’t respond to what I said about arena - IIRC you said that you don’t know what to believe. Those are all direct quotes as is “there people who play that position in MLS”.
     
  12. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    People mention that Berhalter leans on his personal familiarity with MLS as a rationale for why there’s so much MLS representation yet if Klinsmann does it, it’s personal rather than his experience/familiarity.

    It could very well be that klinsmann’s experience was that landon can’t be relied upon as the same high level guy or that he was a bad locker room presence when he’s not “the man”.

    I was against it but my (unproven) gut says that Klinsmann may have told Landon that if he wanted a spot, he needed to toe the party line since he’s no longer the star of the team and when Donovan disregarded that, he had to let him go.

    why isn’t Berhalter’s reliance on trapp and Bradley personal? why isn’t the actions when arena backed up his terrible crap about dual Americans not being “real Americans” personal? It sure seems like a double standard.
     
  13. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    This is what I find so frustrating about many posters on here. It isnt that they have a different views than me. It is that they wont consider other views, especially when their view is just based on some gut feeling.

    I find the whole personal thing downright silly. It just make sense at all. Coaches dont cut players because they dont like them. They do it because they think they can have a better team without them. It is just amazing to me who think Klinsmann hurt the team on a whim but still got results. Are indifferent to Arena gutting the team, and Berhalter gets the benefit of the doubt with his horrible selections and the team looking awful.

    Those people are still on here being childish and petty. They are the ones that dont think there is bias towards MLS players. They are the ones that defended Arena getting rid of the German-Americans. They are the ones unnecessarily attack players... whether it be a kid who will knock Donovan out of the top player spot or the kid who they happen to not like his agent.
     
  14. Mahtzo1

    Mahtzo1 Member+

    Jan 15, 2007
    So Cal
    All I will say is that there are several possible, and I feel plausible, issues with the way Arena chose his team. Some could align with your beliefs. When I say I don't know what to believe do you think I am lying? I know you want an answer. I am sorry if I didn't respond to what you said about Arena. There is one thing...I think the bottom line about Arena that is important at this point. He failed to qualify when he should have. Whether if was due to incompetence, arrogance or something sinister I have no idea and I don't plan to speculate.

    I stupidly allowed myself to get into an old conversation that i never intended to open up. I commented about my prior postings about Klinsmann and Arena but both are old history. If you want to believe that my not wanting to criticize, to a level you deem sufficient, makes me a "hypocrite" than, so be it. I can live with that. I am comfortable with my own opinions. I believe that I state them honestly and if you or anyone else has a problem than that is fine. I don't believe that everyone has an ulterior or sinister motive.
     
  15. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    you’re entitled to your opinion but it’s noticeable that you’ll happily speculate that Klinsmann’s issue with Donovan was personal but won’t speculate on a series of direct quotes from arena.

    Do I think you’re a liar? Nah - I think you don’t want to think about things that create cognitive dissonance with your preferences. Like many, you then say,”well, there’s no enough proof” in climate change, cigarettes cause cancer, flat earth, etc. Note that I’m not saying you believe in any of these things specifically but rather that it’s the non-exploratory response that’s similar when provided evidence that contradicts a viewpoint.
     
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  16. Mahtzo1

    Mahtzo1 Member+

    Jan 15, 2007
    So Cal

    I think you often extrapolate far more than is legitimate. It is interesting that you lump me in with all of those groups of people, then say I you are not saying I believe in any of these things specifically. What is that supposed to mean? Seriously.

    Think about what you just said. If you are as intelligent as I believe you probably are you will realize that was quite a put down. Perhaps it was intentional, perhaps not.

    Just in case you don't understand, the way I interpret your statement is that I am stupid enough to ignore obvious information and science even if I don't actually subscribe to any of those crackpot movements...as if that is supposed to make it not an insult...and make it seem like you are not trying to be insulting. By the way, you forgot the lizard people. My neighbor is a reptilian.
     
  17. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    #443 DHC1, Jan 26, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2020
    i wrote exactly what I meant. You’ve intentionally chosen not to really engage with evidence that doesn’t fit with your viewpoint and fall back on the “there’s
    not enough proof”. I intentionally called out that this isn’t the same as those extreme cases but the response is the same.

    you treat actions by a party you dislike differently than one that you have sympathy to. You also seldom ,if ever, call out people whom you may share some sympathies with but disagree on important issues.

    if you prefer a political analogy rather than those I originally used, that’s works for me as well: the point is that I don’t think you want to pull on strings that ask uncomfortable questions.
     
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  18. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    It is amazing how bad our media is. It is all driven by agendas. I found what Arena did in in 2017 as completely disgusting. People who are MLS fans claim that he was criticized heavily. Recently, this guy really gave to Arena for tearing the team apart and failing to qualify.



    Here is the same guys take on Klinsmann with some club team that has nothing to do with the USMNT.

     
  19. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Let's add a player cut by Klinsmann for the 2014 WC as a supporter. It is starting look like more players liked him than not.

     
  20. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    What exactly did Klinsmann do to break the spirit of the USMNT? I was against him getting a second term and for cutting Landon but for FFS Landon was not the spirit of our national team.
     
  21. butters59

    butters59 Member+

    Feb 22, 2013
    Nope, he was our NT.
     
  22. OWN(yewu)ED

    OWN(yewu)ED Member+

    Club: Venezia F.C.
    May 26, 2006
    chico, CA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    BSI podcasts are the truth. It peers the curtain back in a big way. If you listen to only one, make it Alan Gordon. For more than just the klinsmann trashing. That guy is a mental masterpiece lol
     
  23. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    how exactly did cutting Landon break the heart of the team?

    it obviously didn’t impact the team in Brazil but somehow it corrosively destroyed it in the next cycle?

    who specifically was broken - Bradley?

    Just to confirm: it was the cutting of Landon and not the hole in talent in the lost generation that was the USMNT issue?
     
  24. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's tough to trust a leader after they do something inexplicably stupid.

    I imagine it lead to a lot of second guessing.
     

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