Containment zone: the Klinnsman / Donovan fault line

Discussion in 'USA Men' started by DHC1, Dec 2, 2018.

  1. White/Blue_since1860

    Orange14 is gay
    Jan 4, 2007
    Bum zua City
    Club:
    TSV 1860 München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Klinsi is back for two game days and Bayern lost on both of them leaving them in 7th place.

    #dejavu
     
  2. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That doesn’t sound very proactive.
     
  3. White/Blue_since1860

    Orange14 is gay
    Jan 4, 2007
    Bum zua City
    Club:
    TSV 1860 München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
  4. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It may not be proactive but it sure has been effective!

    Herta had lost 4 in a row in the BuLi and were at the relegation zone before JK was hired. Since his hire they have gone: #4 Dortmund L1-2, #8 Frankfurt T2-2, #6 Freiburg, and #7 Leverkusen W1-0. They have moved 6 points above the relegation zone.

    The first part of the mission which was to stop the free fall and move up from the relegation zone has been accomplished.
     
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  5. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
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  6. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
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  7. yurch10

    yurch10 Member+

    Feb 13, 2004
    Only ridiculous thing in that article is that he'd get the team to the final 4 or final 8. Everything else he said is pretty much spot on. He's like many former players that succeeded at a high level in any sport; just so confident in his ability that he cannot fail. It's not uncommon for someone like him to lack any self-awareness. Unfortunately, while likely useful when you're competing against the best players in the world on the pitch, management requires a bit more nuance and ability to admit weaknesses/failures.

    He has none of that.
     
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  8. Sam Hamwich

    Sam Hamwich Member+

    Jul 11, 2006
    A top 8 result was realistically possible given that Hollander and Italy were not qualified. Brazil was pants. France was never really any good. Spain couldn't keep wanking on the ball. Croatia played Bruce Arena 101 football. England and Belgium would have easily beaten the US. But we had a chance against most of those teams assuming some defensive midfielder could be put in place and Pulisic shielded. Instead of the opposite, no defensive midfield and Pulisic left dangling like bait over a shark tank.
     
  9. An Unpaved Road

    An Unpaved Road Member+

    Mar 22, 2006
    Club:
    --other--
    He wants Berhalter to get all the support he needs. :eek:
     
  10. Sam Hamwich

    Sam Hamwich Member+

    Jul 11, 2006
    JK whatever his faults was always gracious with his words. And he did get a lot of kids started in the Europe. It is unfortunate such a xenophobic attitude has taken hold in the US at so many levels. But in retrospect, Bruce was an incredible rehire and berhalter an inspired choice. The men's program has never seen better days.
     
  11. neems

    neems Member+

    Liverpool FC
    United States
    Apr 14, 2009
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Hard to sympathize too much with Klinsmann because the wheels were really coming off across the program in different ways, but his discharge was not nearly as bad as when Bradley was bus rolled.

    I’d say that the Arena rehire after 2006 was one of the worst sporting decisions I’ve ever seen. Nor has there been a lot of evidence USSF are turning things around. Berhalter, Hudson, mystery hires, etc..
     
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  12. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Not surprising, Pulisic seems to agree with Klinsmann:

    Pulisic is of similar mind, in terms of what the U.S. could have accomplished at the tournament.

    "I think we had quality to [make a deep run]," Pulisic said. "I don't see any reason why we couldn't have. Once you get to those knockout stages, I think anything's possible, I think anything could happen."

    Pulisic also spoke of his appreciation for Klinsmann, who gave the Hershey, Pennsylvania, native his international debut back in 2016.

    "I had a really good relationship with Jurgen, to be honest," Pulisic said. "He gave me my first chance really with the national team, so I don't have anything bad to say about him at all. I'm really thankful for everything that he gave me."
     
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  13. iad_22201

    iad_22201 Member+

    Jan 2, 2009
    Washington, DC
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    In the 2018 World Cup? With the available player pool? Is he delusional??
     
  14. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    You don't want your players to be realistic. You want them bubbling over with confidence in their own ability.
     
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  15. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    player pool only looked poor because Arena tore the team apart and his and Berhalters selections have been awful.

    The only players from the copa centenario that needed to be replaced or a reduced role were Jones, Dempsey, Howard, Beckerman and Wondolowski.

    Replacements could have included increased role for CP and the possible additions of Mckennie, Adam's, Jona Gonzalez, Miazga, Antonee Robinson, Weah, Green, Sargent, Altidore, Steffen, and new dual nationals.

    there is no reason that we shouldn't have had a solid side.
     
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  16. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    The truth is that we should have made the World Cup and our success depended upon the draw and our ability to be better than the sum of our parts.

    it’s never a good idea to assume that we’d make the knockout rounds - I’m guessing that the odds would be against us in most draws.
     
  17. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    There is never a guarantee to get out of the group, but it is a myth that we wouldnt have had a good team that could of done well.

    it is amusing and tells a lot about the folks who wanted Klinsmann out that they thought we had the best pool ever in 2016 and it miraculously became so poor the minute he left.
     
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  18. iad_22201

    iad_22201 Member+

    Jan 2, 2009
    Washington, DC
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Not a myth at all if you actually had an accurate understanding of our player pool in 2018. But given your history here, we all know that expecting you to have a fair and reasonable opinion on anything related to the national team post Klinsmann is something that isn't going to happen.
     
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  19. White/Blue_since1860

    Orange14 is gay
    Jan 4, 2007
    Bum zua City
    Club:
    TSV 1860 München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    There is a word in German for a sportsman or team who/that is allegedly good on paper but does not deliver when it matters: "Trainingsweltmeister". Translation: "world champion of practice sessions".
     
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  20. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Hey... you almost actually said something about soccer.

    It is an absolute myth. We had a bunch of young players finally break through in 2017 and early 2018. Many more than the players we needed to replace. Klinsmann would have integrated them as quick as possible while Arena ignored them in favor crao veteran MLS players. Of course I'm not just guessing about these players as they actual performed at the international level under Sarachan.

    The Copa team was solid, but lacked depth. It would have been simple to add Adam's, Altidore, and Pulisic to the starting lineup, move Jones, Dempsey, and zardes to the bench. Adam's and Altidore additions would have replaced beckerman and Wondolowski. The eight other players I listed could have been considered to improve the rest of the roster. That team would have been a good mix of veteran, prime and young players and would have had at least a similar level of talent to the 2010 and 2014 sides.
     
  21. iad_22201

    iad_22201 Member+

    Jan 2, 2009
    Washington, DC
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Of course the players you mention here were responsible for over half our goals at that tournament. In addition, the skills of Bradley and Cameron (who I've never been that high on to begin with) had noticeably deteriorated by summer of 2018. Bobby Wood (another goal scorer at the Copa) was in terrible form. Fabian Johnson had been injured most of 2018 going into the WC. Jozy had foot surgery in May before the WC. In short, by the summer of 2018 we'd lost (either through aging/form/injuries) the core of our team that had had some relative success in 2014/16.

    Aside from CP and McKennie, not sure there are many in this list of players who would have been terribly helpful at a World Cup in the summer of 2018. Certainly none of those players (save Pulisic) would have been an upgrade on the players we lost from our 14/16 squads.
     
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  22. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Wow... an actual real thought out argument.

    CP showed that he could pick up the slack in 2017. Dempsey and Jones could have still been useful to the squad. Mckennie could have replaced/subbed on for Bradley or Bedoya could have dropped in and CP dropped into the midfield. There were a number CBs who could have played. Wood was on a poor club team but played all season with limited service when not injured. He also scored in 2 of the 3 games he played in march and june for the USMNT.

    Of course, just like Brooks, Yedlin and Green werent going to be of any use to us in 2014. Afams was probably the best player for the USMNT in 2018. He also has the discipline to sit in and play as a dmid. Every player on that list was effective for the USMNT in 2018.

    Another way to attack the question would be how could the team that played respectfully against France right before the world cup been improved? Just adding Brooks, Bedoya and CP for Parker, Trapp, and CCV/Green would have improved the team significantly and added much more experience.
     
  23. iad_22201

    iad_22201 Member+

    Jan 2, 2009
    Washington, DC
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    For all your attempted spinning, there's no question our central midfield would have been considerable worse in the summer of 2018 than in 14/16. Our attack would also have been weaker (Weah/Sargent, a couple of 18 year olds with almost no club first team experience, you're having a laugh). The only area of the field I don't see much change is in defense. Again, I don't know how anyone who looks at the state of our pool in the summer of 2018 could conclude anything other than, had we qualified, we would have sent our weakest squad in years. But I know bsky, you're convinced Klinsmann (who as national team coach would only have worked with the players sporadically) was some kind of miracle worker who would have turned a bunch of teenagers into able replacements for what we'd lost from our 14/16 core...
     
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  24. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    It is not spinning, but looking at the actual options. If you want spinning, you should look for posts by MLS fans, those that idolize LD, and the JK haters.

    The team would have less experience but the midfield and forwards would have things over the previous squads in terms of balance and/or being more dynamic. I would actually prefer CP, Wood, and Green/Weah to Wood, Dempsey, and Zardes. Dempsey would definitely be missed, but CP proved what he could add in 2017.

    I prefer the 14/16 midfield, but think Afams as 6 behind mckennie and Bedoya is much more balanced. Jones and Bradley could have also played more limited roles to help out.

    Maybe the lack of experience would have done us in, but the team would have had decent talent.
     
  25. iad_22201

    iad_22201 Member+

    Jan 2, 2009
    Washington, DC
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There's so much wrong here but I'll come back to the midfield. You can't seriously believe that a midfield comprised of the 2018 versions of Adams, McKennie and Bedoya wouldn't have been a significant decline in quality from what we trotted out in 2014/16.

    And since I'm tiring of this discussion, I'll leave you with this. Bruce Arena isn't the only reason we struggled in qualifying for the 2018 cup. He deserves his fair share of the blame (and I certainly believe we had enough talent to quality), but he was dealing with issues that would have given even the best coach problems. Our core that had served us so well in 10/14/16 was aging out and our young talent (with only a couple exceptions) wasn't ready to step up and take their place. While we certainly should have qualified for the cup, we would have sent a very weak squad to Russia.

    One final thing, there's nobody on this site who has more unhinged views about Donovan than you, bsky.
     

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