Considering Pablo...

Discussion in 'Colorado Rapids' started by DavidJames, Jul 5, 2005.

  1. nowar99

    nowar99 Member

    Apr 14, 2003
    Boulder
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    I am not saying I disagree with you. We were clearly the bottom of the AEG organization when we were 1 of 6 MLS teams, and now I think we rank somewhere behind "Rapids Cheerleaders" and "new stadium" for KSE. Further, we've made plenty of boneheaded player decisions, signing injured after injured after injured SI (Zizi was fun for those two games he started), and Grimandi doesn't need further discussion here. Finally, besides our player moves being terrible, we've been "blessed" with some of the most uninspired coaching available - Mooch, who by all measures seemed like a decent guy, but wore out his welcome, followed Bunker Tim who promised to bring exciting attacking style soccer to CO, but seemed unable to get past signing injured SIs, followed by more exciting attacking style soccer from 6-defender Clavijo, who appears to have been literally the least we could bring in as a coach.

    As for MLS screwing us...the allocation for Zambrano also comes to my mind.

    But the league needn't stick a fork in you every time it screws you. The league screws us every time it shows the sort of preference for some teams that it would never show the Rapids.

    First thing that comes to mind is Freddie Adu. Freddie, a what, 14 year old with no pro experience, says (through his mother?) that he wants to play for DC (my favorite part is that its couched as a "DC or Europe" debate, and that DC was acceptable because it was close to home - you know, he's young and all - ...as if DC and Manchester are practically twin cities). So the league engineers a trade so that DC can draft him. Wait, if Dallas holds the number 1 pick, shouldn't Dallas be able to shop that pick to the highest bidder? Maybe the Rapids, San Jose, New England, NY, etc. could send a bigger package. Instead, the league caved in a manner that helped DC, maybe or maybe didn't help Dallas, and told the rest of the league "you heard what the kid said! When a 14 year old speaks, we obviously listen".

    Next that comes to mind is the issue of allocations. Did the Rapids get one for Spencer's retirement? Did we get one for Pibe's retirement (not sure about this one...possibly).

    Next issue that comes to mind is, in fact, players like Landon. Putting aside the whole issue of players actually wanting to come to Colorado, is there any thought that if the Rapids could come to an agreement with another national team star (lets say hypothetically Claudio Reyna said "I'm going to Colorado to play out my soccer days"), and the terms were similar, would MLS (A) let us have a contract that pays the player $1 million or so a year, and (B) apparently not count against the salary cap?

    I (and many others, I suspect) will never fully trust the league and its motivations until two things happen: (A) AEG divests itself of multiple teams, and (B) the salary and transfer issue becomes a little more transparent. I'm not saying the league needs to dump the cap, or anything like that. But trades need to happen because teams agree to them...not because the league wants to acquiesce the request of a 14 year old kid or because Landon Donovan called his shots (despite the surprise to everyone that San Jose, without realizing it, apparently gave up the means to retain his rights).

    I agree though, that doing well in the league is more a part how well the team is run, management and coaching, player selection, etc. Look at the Metros for most of their existence...they have shown that the league will give you everything you want, and you can still svck. KC has shown that with good coaching and management, you can be competetive every single year.

    We clearly are closer to the Metros camp than the KC camp.
     
  2. Dom. FC

    Dom. FC Member+

    May 10, 2004
    Central US
    A better Rapids related 'how can we do what Dallas did' question is how can we find the next GAM and sign him before anyone else does? And not to hex anybody but maybe we have already with Fabrice 'brown loafers' Noel? ;>)
     
  3. miguel

    miguel Member

    Nov 26, 1998
    Dom.FC...What's a "GAM" ?
     
  4. Dom. FC

    Dom. FC Member+

    May 10, 2004
    Central US
    Eddie Johnson, "Grown-Ass-Man". A nickname that stuck (or maybe not) after an interview when he didn't answer a question about his favorite video game system on the grounds that he was a G-A-M. It is interesting that at the FC Dallas board 'EJ' seems to be the label of choice while in the USMNT area GAM is recognized by most everyone.
     
  5. miguel

    miguel Member

    Nov 26, 1998
    Dom...Thanks. I couldn't make out whose face was on the Tee shirt.
     
  6. regulator

    regulator Member

    Apr 25, 2004
    New Jersey
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    deal. we'll even throw in a few 4th round supplemental draft picks, since we've got about , oh i dont know, 8 or so.
     
  7. Shabs

    Shabs Member

    Jun 19, 2002
    NYC
    yes please.
     
  8. Malaga CF fan

    Malaga CF fan Member

    Apr 19, 2000
    Fairfax, VA
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I find it interesting that everything with Pablo is a sort of grass-is-greener-on-the-other-side story. Most teams in the league, as evidenced by the last two Metromutts posters, would gladly trade away some of their marginal players (not stars, but starters like Lisi, for example) to get Pablo, while those of us who follow Pablo's performance on a regular basis would be willing to take less than he is worth just to get rid of some of the negative aspects that he brings (perceived lack of leadership, too many cards, only 1/2 of this years matches played).

    I agree that the Rapids might be wise to dangle him out there to see what they might get, but I'm not going to be one of those people to jump at the idea of getting Mark Lisi and Mike Magee for our franchise's best field player. The Rapids have a history of poor personel decisions already, why add to it with an ill-conceived trade of Pablo for anything less than another superstar/franchise type player?

    I'm not sure I buy the argument that the Rapids are better without Pablo. Everything with this team has been too inconsistent, with too many variables to believe that Pablo's absence is the key to the Rapids playing well. There have been numerous injuries and appearances (such as a goal by Terry Freakin' Cooke at the 4th of July match) to factor into the equation of Pablo's absence = Rapids victory/increased quality of play. I don't buy it, but if I'm the Rapids GM, I am thinking of what I can do to either get Pablo completely on board with the Rapids as a leader (seems to be working with the Nats) and what I could get for him from other teams who need defense and have expendable parts. (What about Pablo for Cancela and Shalrie Joseph with New England? Now that's a superstar trade.)

    Bottom line. Pablo is an asset, either as a quality franchise player for this team (a role he occupies on occasion, but not consitently) or as trade bait to a team that sees him as a final piece in a push for an MLS Cup. Let's not cheapen the guy just because he's a source of frustration/consternation for us.
     
  9. m vann

    m vann Moderator
    Staff Member

    Colorado Rapids, Celtic FC, & Louisville City
    Sep 10, 2002
    Denver, CO
    Club:
    Celtic FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Looking from an outside perspective the problem I see with the Rapids organization is development and inconsistency. The roster has always been filled with decent players but they have always been second guessed and the "what if we had....." syndrome comes into play. Development comes to mind with 3 players: Luchi, Beckerman, and Freeman. Excuse me if I may be off as I don't get to see the Rapids often. Beckerman, in my eyes, has loads of potential and hasn't lived up to it. He can't seem to put all his skills together in a single game. He's either got the touch and lacks vision or ability to connect on passes. Or he's having to track back quick and make desperate tackles which makes me nervous. The inconsistency kills his game and I don't know if it's him or the system. Either way something needs to change in order for him to be a top tier player in the league. Luchi, is another the baffles me a bit. I've seen 3 times this season and it seems he's one step away from being a potent striker but can't seem to get on the right page. Speed is explosive and touch is fairly good but shot selection needs to improve and he needs to go at defenders more. No hesitation. Freeman, I hope is not in the same category as Kyle. He's often times caught ball watching and needs to improve tactical awareness. In the recent YWC, even though not given the minutes I thought he would get, he didn't fair all that well. I give Hunter the benefit of the doubt because he's a rookie with limited experience. Consistency has plagued the Rapids from the get go and something must changes whether it be in practice, coaching change, or player movements. I would not want to lose Pablo to anyone but at the same time if you can get two for the price of one and they will improve your squad it's worth a shot
     
  10. DavidJames

    DavidJames Member+

    May 11, 2003
    Longmont
    I agree with this completely. I like Pablo and paraphrasing what I said in the OP, the right trade for Pablo will make the team better, not because the team is better without Pablo, but rather the team needs a Pablo level player in offensive midfield a lot more than it needs the "real Pablo" in the defensive midfield.
     
  11. Quinn 33

    Quinn 33 Member+

    Apr 25, 2003
    Denver, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I agree 100%.
     
  12. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't think so and yes, we used it for Zizi Roberts. I think (but I may be wrong) that we got one combined for El Pibe, DiGi, and another player all leaving. I know we got a combined allocation at one point for 3 players leaving, one of whom was DiGi, I just don't know if that was the El Pibe one or not.

    P.S. Great post
     
  13. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    While Pablo is a great player, the Rapids are better without Pablo's salary cap commitment for a player who's on pace to play in 18 of 32 games this season. Of course, this assumes that the FO could take that salary and find a player who isn't a SI coming off of an injury, something they haven't shown the ability to do.

    I've been saying this since about Pablo since midway through the 2002 season though, so my perspective might be a little biased at this point.
     
  14. The Magpie

    The Magpie Member

    Nov 19, 1998
    Cambridge, MA
    O.k. now... one hit from the bong is plenty now.

    Honestly, if there is a trade involving Cancela, New England, and the Rapids, I wouldn't mind the following:

    Colorado get: Jose Cancela and cap relief, that, or if not the latter, the Revs' unused partial allocation still owed them by the League after the departure of Daniel Hernandez. Not sure if it could be done, but between that and the partial allocation currently owed Colorado, perhaps the League would consider bundling that as a full allocation for possible use in 2006?

    Revolution get: Hunter Freeman and a (late-round) draft pick in 2006.

    Clavijo's been looking for a midfielder, has spoken well of Cancela, and New England has enough cap space to give some up. Meanwhile, Steve Nicol's been looking for a defender, but would also do well to find someone who could step in for Dempsey or Joseph should either depart in the off-season. Considering Nicol's success with younger players, it would certainly make Freeman appealing.

    Thoughts?

    The Magpie
     
  15. Bonji

    Bonji Moderator

    Feb 4, 2003
    Denver, Colorado
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't think Freeman can step into the center of the field for Dempsey. If anyone could beef up your defense and fill in the midfield, it is Pablo. I'd be ok with Pablo for Cancela.
     
  16. UxSxAxfooty

    UxSxAxfooty Member+

    Jan 23, 2003
    Rochester, NY
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Pablo for Cancela isn't enough. Throw in Dorman and it might be close, but I don't think Pepe is worth Mastroeni straight up.

    I really think the Rapids should've picked up on Cassio when NE released him. Left-wing Brazillian. Could he be any worse than Denton?

    Nevertheless, in the best interest of Freeman's future professional career, he probably should go to New England with Nicol. I'd take that trade, Magpie.

    m_vann, the only one of Luchi, Beckerman or Freeman who looks to have a good upside is Freeman. I wish I could see your perspective on Beckerman, but the way I see it, he's become complete rubbish. He does everything mediocre, not great, not terrible. I really wish we could trade him to LA so he could rot on the bench in place of Grabavoy.

    Luchi is a tough case. For a Hermann trophy winner, he looks fairly average. From what I've seen, he's also rather slow; certainly not speedy. Honestly, I can't see how he has any upside over what Carrieri was.

    I think Freeman got an undeserved bum rap from the U20 tournament. At the least, I think he's the only one of those three who will be able to contribute significantly in the future, in addition to right now, if he were allowed to play.
     
  17. Malaga CF fan

    Malaga CF fan Member

    Apr 19, 2000
    Fairfax, VA
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I agree, and I realized when I proposed Pablo for Cancela and Joseph that a trade like that would be lopsided. But I think that's the way Colorado needs to think right now, rather than just getting rid of a problem, they get some quality in return.

    The worst thing the Rapids could do is let Pablo go on the cheap. But I do have my doubts that he is a player to build around if Colorado wants to become a turnaround like FC Dallas in the next year or two. Outside of Joe Cannon, I personally think everyone on this roster is expendable.
     
  18. GoRapids

    GoRapids Member

    Sep 1, 1999
    Boulder CO
    Don't trade Freeman ... he's our only young un with potential. We don't get that too often.

    And Magpie we certainly do NOT need cap relieve in any way shape or form. Pablo for Cancela just doesn't cut it for me. Pablo is worth more than that.

    Pablo for Cancela and partial Allocation ... getting closer. Maybe give us a high draft pick too?
     
  19. miguel

    miguel Member

    Nov 26, 1998
    Magpie... You've been around here from the beginning and I'm sure that you recall the play of Dan Hernandez during his short stint in New England. Rumor mill is trolling his name around as a possible to come back from Mexico to play in the MLS. I recall that he was a tough and gritty player when he was awith the Metro Stars and a fan favorite. What happened to him in Foxboro? After 10 years in the league he must be getting a bit long in the tooth and I doubt that most teams will be willing to expend very much money to get him back into the MLS. Any thoughts?..... Miguel
     
  20. miguel

    miguel Member

    Nov 26, 1998
    Just re-read his bio and he joined the Galaxy in 98 so he's only been playing professionally for 8 years. He may still have some good years ahead of him. adios
     
  21. UxSxAxfooty

    UxSxAxfooty Member+

    Jan 23, 2003
    Rochester, NY
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I could see Sasha Gotsmanov and some other player or pick to New England for the rights to Daniel Hernandez and Jose Cancela.
     
  22. Bonji

    Bonji Moderator

    Feb 4, 2003
    Denver, Colorado
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Hernandez was sent to Mexico mid-season 2003, so depending on that exact date the Revs might not even own his rights anymore. If the Rapids are serious about this move, they should wait until his two year transfer aniversary is over so the rights issue dies.
     
  23. Soccer Doc

    Soccer Doc Member+

    Nov 30, 2001
    Keene, NH
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    DONE :D

    Lets move on. Any other deal you want to offer?

    How about Hunter Freeman for Marshall Leonard?
     
  24. Centennial

    Centennial Member+

    Apr 4, 2003
    Centennial
    Better yet, how about a straight up trade 1 for 1. Pablo for Youri Djorkaeff yeah!
     
  25. Lurtz

    Lurtz Member

    Jul 10, 2005
    Foxboro, MA
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Nat'l Team:
    Portugal
    I'd love to see Pablo get traded for Christian Gomez, that would help out Colorado so much.

    DC would probably never do that trade though. :(

    Cancela is another great choice, especially since Nicol doesn't seem to like him too much as he never seems to allow him to play a full game.

    If I were FC, I would trade Pablo in a 1 for 1 trade to NE for Cancela.
     

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