CONMEBOL WC Qualifiers [Rs]

Discussion in 'Referee' started by balu, Oct 9, 2020.

  1. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    Hanlon's Razor . . .

    "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity."
     
    JasonMa, dadman, Thegreatwar and 2 others repped this.
  2. LampLighter

    LampLighter Red Card

    Bugeaters FC
    Apr 13, 2019
    If I lie on a form to get into a country, I get arrested, possibly never allowed to enter that country again.

    Soccer players won't though, no punishment at all.
     
  3. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Reports say the players don't fill out the forms as that generally falls on the staff of the club/nation. Now, I don't know if that means they just sign it blindly which they might if they are used to doing it that way between all the international travel with club and country.
     
  4. LampLighter

    LampLighter Red Card

    Bugeaters FC
    Apr 13, 2019
    I don't believe that matters in Law, so I don't see why it would matter here. Your lawyer is your representative, it's still your signature.
     
  5. Ombak

    Ombak Moderator
    Staff Member

    Flamengo
    Apr 19, 1999
    Irvine, CA
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    So many Brazilians keep repeating this as if it's an all or nothing thing and that's just nonsense.

    As far as the match goes, the host is responsible for making sure conditions allow for the match to happen without any issues.

    Exceptions are made regularly to the law that AFA broke. All CBF had to do was request, through the proper channels, an exemption (which is specified in the same law you are talking bout, it's written right there). In fact, it appears when CBF finally did request it, they were late and they called the wrong person.

    This focus on "AFA broke the law!" is not productive and not honest discourse. In fact, the players were allowed to leave without any consequences, so why make a circus out of it on the field?

    Anvisa did what they are supposed to do. AFA filled out some forms wrong. But CBF is responsible for making sure the parties involved have everything they need so that the match can go ahead. The only reason it didn't is that CBF failed to inform AFA ahead of time, and once everyone was informed by Anvisa of the issue CBF failed to properly request an exemption (again, an exemption that is specified in the same law that everyone keeps focusing so much on without being willing to understand how these things normally happen).
     
    voiceoflg, dadman and Thegreatwar repped this.
  6. LampLighter

    LampLighter Red Card

    Bugeaters FC
    Apr 13, 2019
    No, they lied deliberately. It's useless to try and argue past this point.
     
  7. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You don't see 6:47 every day. Very well-handled, I think, by the referee (Guerrero of Ecuador) and his AR. I think it might be fair to say the whistle could have gone a little earlier once he realized the advantage wasn't materializing (though that's always a little hard to say with the audio sync on clips like this), but ultimately you can't place the blame on a referee when the player does something as stupid as this. Right result, calmly (like, ice-cold type of calm!) done and no need for VAR.



    The incident that immediately follows in the highlight package, involving the Bolivian goalkeeper, is also of interest.
     
  8. unclesox

    unclesox BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 8, 2003
    209, California
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Incredible finish - 10 minutes into injury time! - of Colombia-Ecuador involving VAR.
    Another VAR incident at 72' also a bit confusing with the replay(s) of offside not being shown on the live broadcast.
     
  9. SccrDon

    SccrDon Member+

    Dec 4, 2001
    Colorado Springs
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What was the call against the BOL GK - just a foul?
     
  10. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Neymar had an interesting moment tonight when he bumped the referee deliberately at 9'--video has gone viral. I'm sure there will be thoughts here.

    On the appointment side of things, Herrera of Venezuela has a big Uruguay-Argentina match tomorrow. Rapallini has Chile-Ecuador Tuesday, which is also quite big.

    Most interesting, perhaps, is that Cunha has Argentina-Brazil. It won't matter for qualifying, but given what happened earlier and the fact that it's the biggest international in the world... that's an eye-opening assignment. I wonder if it means Cunha is in the mix for 2022 or if it's just a matter of him being the veteran official in the confederation who is least objectionable to both FAs.
     
  11. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The Neymar incident: https://streamable.com/8jgszj

    The one caveat that sticks in my mind as I see this is that we only see one angle and the referee is moving toward Neymar, too. This feels like it should be a red card (in a vacuum, of course) but I would want to see another angle to get a comprehensive understanding of the whole situation. I could envisage another angle where it looks like the referee is just as "culpable" as Neymar, in some regards (insofar as the issue of violence goes--not, of course, relative to Neymar's language and attitude).

    All that said, Neymar in the 9th minute of a Brazil-Colombia match... what's the right "solution" here?
     
  12. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    It should be a red card, but it's never going to be. Especially in South America.

    The cat is out of the bag with Neymar at this point in his career. We have seen officials from two separate continents pretty much let him do whatever he wants towards them. We've seen him run roughshod over Kuipers and other European officials.

    The only referee I saw get through to Neymar somehow is Lahoz.

    The one outlier is France where they seem to not tolerate his non-sense as much as officials internationally do. He gets about a red card a season in France, give or take.

    Short of him pushing or going completely over the top towards an official, I don't think we'll ever see him get sent-off for abuse or assault towards an official.
     
    Thegreatwar repped this.
  13. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    I really think IFAB/FIFA (and all professional leagues) need to move to any contact initiated at an R is a send off. Period. Make it well known and enforce it--every single time. And if referees drop the ball, impose the ban after the fact.

    You almost never see an NBA player bump a ref? Why? Because they know it will get them tossed every single time. And if there is room on an 94' basketball court for players to not bump referees, there is more than enough room on a 330' soccer pitch.

    This isn't just about the professional game, but about the messages it sends throughout the Game. What the top referees permit (because of what they are expected to permit) creates expectations that it is OK for others to do.

    What Neymar did absolutely, positively should be a send off every single time in every single game regardless of level. The fact that we even discuss whether the R actually should have done that is not an indictment of the R, but of a system that has spun the wrong direction.

    (And if we are really more concerned about 11 v 11 than about appropriate behavior, we should revisit whether there can be a sub for a sent off player (after a period of time?) rather than to continue to let the behavioral expectations slide.)
     
  14. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The NFL is the same. Any deliberate contact with an official is an ejection.
     
  15. Mikael_Referee

    Mikael_Referee Member+

    Jun 16, 2019
    England
    That is probably where I am, this is still in some kind of grey area for me.

    I would contrast this to a scene from the EURO actually, involving a newly appointed member of the UEFA referees committee (I am stating that for news and not point-proving btw) - here - which should be a RC IMO.
     
  16. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    Completely agree. The problem we have is that no one really expects it to be a red. I really think the Game needs that to change.
     
    jayhonk and msilverstein47 repped this.
  17. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Wow, missed that during the tournament (guess I wasn't watching late at 5-0 there!). Definitely a red card. Deliberate and unnecessary. I'd imagine Kuipers simply chose to take the path of least resistance at that moment in time but, it's worth stating, a red card there (5-0, Slovakia eliminated) really doesn't lead to any resistance at the macro-level.

    But yeah, on the Neymar incident we cannot discount, despite Neymar's obvious aggressive attitude, that Tobar was moving toward Neymar, as well. If there's any doubt relative to who stopped last, a red card would open up a whole series of questions and unwanted attention. If this is clean, with Neymar being both the catalyst AND the clear final cause of the contact, then it's red. But if there's any grey area on who ultimately bumped whom, so to speak, it gets really tricky for a referee because Neymar (or any other player) could plausibly argue they were taking an aggressive posture without any intent to commit "violence," which would be the difference between a yellow and a red card..

    Without seeing their feet and another angle, it's really impossible to tell what happened here. Of course, Neymar didn't even get a yellow, so...
     
  18. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    I think we all missed this.

    That's who Kuipers was and that's why he seemingly got every big game in UEFA the last 5 years. He was never gonna give a red card there.

    He never rocked the boat with any controversial decision. What was the biggest call he ever made in a CL match? The send-off to Ibrahimovic in a Chelsea vs. PSG tie?



    I think with VAR, there is a good chance that might get overturned now.
     
  19. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Probably overturned in MLS, for sure. But we haven't really seen what the threshold is for overturning an SFP card in UEFA, have we? There's a bit of a chicken v egg going on there, because the threshold for giving SFP has gone way up that I can't think of a recent high-profile over-puishment that got downgraded. Remember that both recent big Oliver SFP cards (at EURO and then a couple weeks ago in Dortmund) stood, despite one being harsh and the other being farcical. I think the threshold for overturning a VC or SFP red card via VAR in UEFA is higher than most observers of VAR in domestic leagues probably imagine.

    I think the more likely scenario is that Kuipers doesn't "guess" as much with VAR and only goes yellow initially there.

    As to the larger question about his big decisions, my memory isn't working well for me at the moment, but I seem to recall some pretty contentious penalties. But red cards? No, I think you've nailed it.
     
    RedStar91 repped this.
  20. Pierre Head

    Pierre Head Member+

    Dec 24, 2005
    The right solution is a red card, as others here have noted and the mob is baying for. However it is not the reality and the "practical" solution. There are other ways to deal with this throughout the match, and the player if he is smart, will know that he must be an angel for the rest of the match!

    PH
     
  21. Sport Billy

    Sport Billy Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 25, 2006
    As was discussed in the other thread (ref videos), SPA is not cautioned near enough. USA:MEX 9’
    US player beats Mexican player and is heading towards the PA when he’s pulled down by the Mexican player.

    Heading in to the PA with pace is a promising attack. The attack just has to be promising. So many officials hold it to a higher standard and don’t caution the foul.
     
  22. gaolin

    gaolin Member+

    Apr 21, 2019
    You know what won't get called either? Simulation
     
  23. Sport Billy

    Sport Billy Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 25, 2006
    Nice. Finally.
     
  24. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Did we move to CONMEBOL?
     
  25. Sport Billy

    Sport Billy Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 25, 2006
    Sorry. Digging for a thread and missed that. Good call
     

Share This Page