I also agree with @RedStar91 about the Rojas incident and this concept generally (ahem, Coulibably). But yeah, the Al-Ghandour foul call seemed/seems 100% correct. You have the shirt pull down low by the goal side player and then the hand on the shoulder from behind. The Korean player who could have challenged for that ball had absolutely not chance to due to a combination of two fouls. I've also heard there is evidence supporting Prendergast's call. I'd be interested to learn why you defend the Merk decision, because it is hard to see how with the evidence above. Of course, a larger point that could be made is that none of those foul decisions would ever result in a penalty. So to the extent, nowadays, that VAR is being used "objectively" to call fouls... well, it's really not. The "what football expects" standard seems to still reign supreme. But we all already knew that. And probably never anticipated it being any different.
I guess we'll just agree to disagree. None of those three should have been fouls at that time and certainly no serious professional referee would call those live right now. I just don't see enough in the Al-Ghandour incident to support a foul. There is a shirt pull by Baraja, but there is also slight shirt pull on him and a shove/forearm in his back. That's just standard jostling and nothing to rise to the level of a foul for a penalty or foul coming out. I don't think VAR would intervene in today's game and take that away. No modern referee would make that call in today's call. Why go looking for trouble trying to make some hero or eagle-eye call? It still wasn't the worst call in that game in the worst officiated World Cup in the 21st century. (6:30 in the video). What on earth did the AR see to think the ball was over the goal line? I still can't wrap my head around it. The Shevchenko goal is a clear slip by Puyol and even if Shevchenko did slightly pull him down (which I don't think he did) it still isn't with enough force or severity to disallow the goal. Again, the game wants goals and no one wants goals taken away for ticky-tack fouls like that. The Wilmots goal is just a great header and he just out jumped the Brazilian defender. There is no way that's a foul and a very very poor decision. I'd argue that is the poorest of the three. If that's a foul then there is no way for an attacker to score off a cross unless he is in front of the defender. Again, referees and ARs got burned time and time again in that World Cup by trying to practice "safe" refereeing. Consistently giving the benefit of the doubt to the defense on offsides (any close offside decision was met with a raised flag because the ARs were terrified of allowing a marginally offside goal). Same thing with set pieces and crosses. The referees were terrified of allowing a remotely "controversial" goal for a foul by the attacker. They had been making those type of decisions for years, but it just so happened the ball didn't get in the net with the frequency it did at that World Cup. The ended up getting burned because the ball went into the back of the net and the TV pictures showed just how bad the decisions were.
So the Brazilian Police and health officials just stopped Brazil/Argentina 7 minutes into the game to arrest 3 Argentina players for failing to disclose they've been in the UK. You cannot make this up.
I have no idea. What an insane story. The one thing I can understand is that CBF was upset that their PL players wouldn't be released. Doesn't that mean they would need to quarantine? Or was everything going to be overlooked if both teams had their players, but once it was just Argentina then something was done?
The question is, given that all this was known at least 24 hours ago, why didn't the Brazilian officials take action before the match started? They could have easily detained said players and removed them from the country before the match started, thus allowing Argentina to replace them in their lineup and the match to go forward. Heck, any half-awake immigration agent should have noticed that they had been in the UK in the past 14 days and not allowed them to enter the country. For Brazilian officials to wait until after the match had started and then stop the match six minutes after it started is ridiculous. At this point, even though the Argentinian players were in the wrong, the Brazilian officials were the ones the screwed up by not doing anything until after the match had started. Therefore it has to be a forfeit to Argentina.
The only reason this MIGHT happen is because Brazil is going to qualify anyway. If just handing Argentina three points is the path of least resistance and doesn’t harm either of the two biggest federations, I can see a scenario where this is the outcome. Still, as it stands, the other 8 federations have an interest in making sure this match gets played or Argentina forfeits, given they are the team everyone else has a better chance of catching. There’s no constituency for a Brazil forfeit, other than Argentina itself. So I think that’s unlikely and I have to stress that it would never even be considered if it had a chance at adversely affecting qualification for Brazil. As for what went on today, I found this thread helpful. Some of the facts seem like they are in dispute, but it gives a good overall narrative/timeline. Brazil vs Argentina situation - a timeline1. Emi Martinez, Cristian Romero, Emi Buendia and Lo Celso lied about having been in England within the last 2 weeks in order to enter Brazil— EiF (@EiFSoccer) September 5, 2021
I'm looking at it from the angle that FIFA has very strict rules about national governments interfering in FIFA business, which obviously includes the playing of matches. Likewise, FIFA also has strict rules about pitch security during matches. Once the match started, security should not have allowed Brazilian government officials on the pitch. What if in the future some government official wants to come on the pitch to accost the referee about a officiating decision? Government officials marching on to the pitch in the middle of a match simply cannot be allowed to happen, no matter what the circumstances. That's why I think FIFA would be pretty pissed at Brazil...they had their chance to act before the match started and screwed it up.
They wouldn't be caught at the border if they made false statements. It would be logical that an investigation occurred and customs saw the match as a situation in which they could apprehend them without the chance of their getting away, since the team staff probably would have done all they could to prevent it from happening if it was a more private setting.
You’re looking at it from a perspective where you aren’t taking into account that this is Brazil. I’d also say you’re stretching FIFA’s “no government interference” mantra way past its limits. FIFA understands, for example, that national governments have a say in public health and security. If government agents were seeking to deny (or rescind) certain players entry based on established health protocols, it’s not an open and shut case of “interfering with football matters.” It’s not like players have diplomatic immunity. And you want “security” (stadium personnel or possibly local police) to deny field entry to federal government agents due to FIFA guidelines? Stop and think how crazy that sounds. Brazilian citizens would stand up to the Brazilian federal government to enforce FIFA statutes that are unclear at best? I hope you can realize how the world doesn’t work that way. “Security” would just be arrested. It’s not like a mini civil war is going to break out in the name of FIFA. Anyway, this whole thing is as complicated as it is farcical. And Brazil very well may forfeit because the consequences of such a decision are negligible (and prevent the need for a replay). But again, it’s Brazil. If this mattered to Brazil’s qualification chances, a forfeit would never be considered. Believing otherwise is naive.
Off-topic to CONMEBOL, but another example of the craziness of this day - Morocco's national team is currently trapped in Guinea when their match was postponed because of a coup attempt. Details are still unclear whether the coup was successful.
Yes it is Brazil....but the Brazilian government also had plenty of opportunities to take action against the Argentinian players in question BEFORE the match started, including not letting them enter the country in the first place. Any cursory examination of the players' passports by immigration officials at entry would have revealed that they had been in the UK within the last 14 days. The only reason that things got to the point that they did was because of Brazilian incompetence. Once the match started, someone (ideally the FIFA match commissioner) should have told the health officials, "Sorry, you're too late".
From the sound of it there has been some sort of an approved exception within conmebol for players traveling from quarantine list nations if they are kept within a football bubble. So that makes it sound like one part of the Brazilian government approved that while the health ministry all of a sudden didn't.
But we can probably guess that Argentina tried to get away with something and Brazil took gamesmanship to a new level.
Couple of thoughts. First, when it is suggested the Brazilian authorities could have acted sooner such as at the border: it isn't a ban on people who have been in the UK coming into the country, it is a quarantine (most often at a hotel). So as long as those four players were at the hotel, they were abiding by the rules. Leaving the hotel - that's the key, and unless the health officials had the hotel staked out, they might not have known until seeing the players on the broadcast. It's a pretty simple scenario to see them make it to the stadium only as soon as they did. Second, this is not at all what it means to not have a government interfere with the game. Countries control their own immigration, their own visa process, and their own health standards. They can't level them willy-nilly against rival teams, but from what I can see, this is above board. Awkward and unfortunate, but at this point it looks legitimate to me. What I am really interested in knowing is what sort of proof of identity and authority a referee would need to allow all of this to proceed.
I love to lurk in the ref forum to this day. Was thinking about coming in and joking about whether anyone had ever had to deal with something like this and here you all are having a reasonable conversation about this already. The latest statement by the health authority basically details a timeline and claims that at 17H Saturday they met with AFA, CBF and CONMEBOL and informed them those players had violated protocol and could not play, they had to be deported. My initial reaction was that, as hosts, Brazil would have to forfeit because of the whole mess. But if that meeting happened, then I think all 3 of AFA, CBF and CONMEBOL screwed up beyond just the initial entry into the country that AFA messed up by not properly filling out immigration documents.
Since the Brazilian players were exposed to those Argentine Premier League players does this mean they cannot play the home game against Peru on Thursday?
Whatever the situation is, you solve it before kickoff. Or you delay the kickoff. You don't march on to the pitch and stop the match five minutes after it has begun.
That’s why I subscribe to the “Brazilian gamesmanship” theory. They had every chance to stop this before kickoff. How long were the players at the stadium? They took a gamble that if they did this, then the match would either be ruled a Brazil forfeit win or Argentina would have to sub those players out and waste a number of subs. If I’m right-CONMEBOL, man!!
I really think people should read this timeline, which I already posted above. Brazil vs Argentina situation - a timeline1. Emi Martinez, Cristian Romero, Emi Buendia and Lo Celso lied about having been in England within the last 2 weeks in order to enter Brazil— EiF (@EiFSoccer) September 5, 2021 Certain facts may be in dispute but it really helps with the overall narrative of how this happened and who, generally, did what and when they did it. I’d also point out that I don’t think you can say or imply that the CBF and the Health Ministry were in cahoots. This is Brazil v Argentina. Brazil wants this game played without shenanigans. Because they don’t want to face the reverse going to Buenos Aires.