Listen; it all very simple. If you are the government of the United States, and you have such confidence, such direct evidence, in the presence of WMD, if you KNOW they were moved, then why in the *#*#*#*# are you wandering around Iraq looking for them? Why not, for once, make clear the truth as you see it? Indeed, if Lebanon or Syria is harboring Iraq's WMDs, then why doesn't the US government say so, and act, decisively? Two reasons: what they know or didn't know was all circumstancial hogwash, and they are scheduled in most military endeavours by Rove's re-election timetable... Remember when we had to get into iraq so quickly because it was going to be so hot, too hot to be there later? Well, we went right through the damn summer trudging through Iraq, didn't we? So it wasn;t about the troops; it was about getting the initial political backlash from US citizen/soldier death on the ground i nthe desert out of the way such that the spin could be enacted in time for re-election...THAT'S why...you'll find examples like this abound...just look back at what was actually said by your government...
Whoa...Universal makes a post that makes me glad I haven't gotten around to putting his new moniker on ignore!! Good point. If we know, why the f*** are we asking for $600M over the next year to look for them in Iraq. We should use that money as a downpayment on PNAC Fantasy II: Target Syria. (I have to go fumigate my keyboard now.)
Perhaps if we didn't waste months of time letting Hans Blix aimlessly roam the country at the behest of Germany/France/UN, then Saddam wouldn't have had time to hide/move his weapons. You know, kind of like when the cops are stopping a drug-trafficking pimp, who either toss the stuff out the window or swallow it. Well, since the UN was driving the getaway car, Saddam was allowed to unload the drugs. Now we just have to find them. And, it ain't helping to have you Johnnie Cochran wannabees out there looking to give Saddam a get out of jail free card based on a technicality.
Wait...stop. Just stop. Are you asking me to forget February 5th, at the United Nations? In case you forgot, let me refresh your memory: Notice how we can declare to the world which munitions bunkers are active and which are not; that's how good our sat-intel and ground intel was, remember? We had not only the evidence of the materiel, but we had sussed out the entirety of his materiel "removal" processes...we had "authentic" intel up the yang-yang, buddy... We went in front of the world and told them "WE KNOW, you don't, Blix is full of *#*#*#*# when he says that substantial breaches in WMD have not been found, we have the evidnece, and WE'RE going in..." Such overwhlemingly fabu intel doesn't turn to such high levels of shit without it being total shit in the first place...we had nothing, we knew nothing; the only thing we knew is that 9/11 was a perfect opp to go in, even without the world community, an act which was against the will of the vast majority of the world, and most of the West... See, you still don't get it; these two preventatvie wars, this toppling of governments through military force, they are, and never were, about the Taliban and Saddam... They are about us; about who we are. And with these, as Daffy Duck would call them, "unmitigated prefabrications," Powell, Rice and the rest of that Fool's Crew have sentenced us, at least in the mid-term to a more dangerous world, and a world in which not the rule of law, international or otherwise, rules, but rather the rule of might makes right...that's who we are right now...a nation who sabotaged not only international law, but our own credibility in those international circles... Its sad for you that veterans of all kinds of wars, students, homemakers, activists and others like myself don't want the US to sentence itself to the same path of empires that have gone before it, that we see a different America; an America leading in the spiritual justice vein of Martin Luther King, and not the foul control-freak vein of, well, pseudo-facists; that we see an America that responds as a grown-up world leader not only when its easy, but more importantly when its really *#*#*#*#ing HARD... Remember, if you look at 9/11 as a crime, the tools to prosecute were already there, and the perps were dead; we were after the conspirators, remember? Do you remember? Well, after the toppling of not only two governments, but the U.S. Constitution (both the spirit and the law), the conspirators have yet to be caught. Let's be about our true business, and quit listening to these energy lobbying, "Death of the West" fear-mongering Cabinet positionists who DON'T CARE ABOUT YOU... Let's get back to the grim business at hand; bringing criminals to justice, and setting an example throughout the world that we are about justice and law and international cooperation not just when it's good for Coca-Cola and Nike, but when its more difficult to achieve (and the achievement thereof has more meaning, for us and the entire globe)...
You know, you might try reading the actual report, so you can state what Kay actually said, and in context. "one high-level detainee has recently claimed that Iraq retained a small quantity of Scud-variant missiles until at least 2001, although he subsequently recanted these claims" "Two other sources contend that Iraq continued to produce until 2001 liquid fuel and oxidizer specific to Scud-type systems ... To date we have not discovered documentary or material evidence to corroborate these claims, but continued efforts are underway to clarify and confirm this information with additional Iraqi sources and to locate corroborating physical evidence." Your selective source is very cute, quoting Kay as saying: "Scud fuel can only be used in Scud-variant missiles", when in reality, the entire sentence was: "If we can confirm that the fuel was produced as late as 2001, and given that Scud fuel can only be used in Scud-variant missiles,we will have strong evidence that the missiles must have been retained until that date." If he finds a missle silo with IBMs carrying 10-megaton warheads, that too will also be strong evidence. If he finds an alien space ship in Iraqi Area 54 with ray guns, that too will also be strong evidence. And even if he does find evidence that they were trying to make Scud fuel, that doesn't necessarily follow that he had Scuds. He is documented as in discussions with North Korea about purchasing long range missiles - perhaps he was just trying to get the fuel component ready IF he ever got them. Which it doesn't seem he ever did. You don't have a problem going to war on vague "ifs"? Kay states right off the bat: "We need to recall that in the 1991-2003 period the intelligence community and the UN/IAEA inspectors had to draw conclusions as to the status of Iraq's WMD program in the face of incomplete, and often false, data ... [O]ur understanding of the status of Iraq's WMD program was always bounded by large uncertainties and had to be heavily caveated." I don't recall Bush/Cheney/Rumsfield/Powell/Rice mentioning any caveats, any uncertainties, the fact that their intelligence might have been incomplete or false. Do you? http://edition.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/10/02/kay.report/
Cont... We were actually catching in mid-flight planes spraying "simulated" anthrax; we were so buttoned down on Iraq; DO YOU REMEMBER, IAN? DO YOU REMEMBER THESE *#*#*#*#ING LIES?? I do.
Re: Cont... Intelligence was given. The president made a descion based on said intellegence. We took down a dirtbag who has wmd's. And even if he somehow destroyed them, it was a momentary move to get the UN off his back.He was going to bring back those programs one way or another. But never mind that right Uni? I mean the guy was misunderstood since day one.
Re: Re: Re: Cont... Dan, stop messing with people's posts. You're bitter about Saddam being gone. That has been well established, so just leave people's posts alone.
Re: Re: Cont... manny, here's your chance to prove you're not psychotic. Please tell me you meant to write "had", but that you hit the key just to the left of "d." Please.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Cont... Messing? Or bringing people's muddled thoughts to their fullest potential? You'll thank me one day.
Re: Re: Re: Cont... Why should i back off of the notion that there are Iraqi wmd's intact somewhere? I mean i want to make you happy and all, but i don't think i can change my message that drastically. Sorry Dave, call me crazy if you want, but i have seen nothing that would make this an impossibility.
Yes sure, WMD are now in Syria or in the Bekaa valley, Sharon casually attacked Syria, casually JINSA and PNAC ideas and policies (and also sometimes the names of participants) practically coincide . Oh forgive me, It's just a conspiracy theory.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Cont... You do realize, don't you, that "not impossible" doesn't equate to truth? Or has the koolaid already started to work?
Re: Re: Re: Re: Cont... Mysteriously, we have no evidence of what I was doing between 2330 last night and 0630 this morning, and I have no recollection of the events over that time period. Since there is no evidence that would make this an impossibility, clearly I was abducted by aliens and crammed into a really small box... which would explain the odd crick in my neck today.
http://www.israeleconomy.org/strat1.htm New Israeli strategy, new american century, New this, new that, BS... it's old stuff. http://www.jinsa.org/ http://www.just-tzedakah.org/reports/JewishInstituteforNationalSecurityAffairs/basicinfo.html
Re: Re: Cont... Who was the intelligence given by? If a crackhead told you that you could get a Mercedes for $1 if you walked down that dark alley late at night would you do it? We essentially walked down the dark based on the intelligence of a crackhead (yes, I'm calling Chalabi a crackhead). If Saddam "HAS" wmds where are they? "He was going to bring them back"? Are you Carnack? Can you read the mind of every person, or just "scumbags"?
Re: Re: Cont... Let me put this in terms you have a chance of understanding. If pimp A breaks into your mother's house and kills her, and you, seeking vengence and money, and not justice, go out into the street and kill three pimps you find on the street, pimps B, C, and D (while also - to make this analogy really work - robbing them of their money and other resources for yourself), guess what's going to happen to you? You're going to go to jail. And when you argue the totally true assertion that you rid the streets of three pimps from whom the people, in fear, deserved relief, you are still going to jail, because the law is the law, and vengence/pillaging is not justice, no matter the good it might serve in a corollary - or even in a direct - sense...you are still a murderer, and the representatives of law and order are still going to bring you to justice...you are still WRONG. America is wrong. 9/11 was a crime, not an opprtunity. It demanded sobering, grim pursuit of the conspirators (the perps, of ocurse, being dead), in the unending effort to bring them to justice. Whatever happened to the conservative notion of individual responsibility, and wy isn't that reflected in this argument? Where are the conservatives submitting "There are specific people responsible for this atrocity; get the evidence, pursue and apprehend, and judge accordingly those persons." Not a damn peep; especially not from you Manny. Like your foolish government, you see this as an opprtunity for things only tangentially related to specific justice (behind which, if you remember theheadlines on 12 September, the ENTIRE world stood with us), not a solemn duty of crminal pursuit. Again, this is NOT about Saddam Hussein. ITS ABOUT WHO WE ARE AS A NATION, AS A WORLD LEADER, and who we've become; opportunists who cast away the process of international law the moment it doesn't suit us. In other words, *#*#*#*#ing hypocrites who are willing to call upon int'l law when it works for us, and abandon it when it rules agin' us. What's the difference between that and authentic, wholesale abandonment of the UN and internationalism? The difference is at least THAT would be taking a stand...statespersons do that; the former is the wishy-washy opprtunism that POLITICIANS embrace...standing for nothing, they can spin everything...this is today's America. Hell, its 1980s America; just look at the approach to Lebanon and Nicaragua... Are we the type of nation that upholds the rule of law, and acts under a rule of law in concert and healthy relationship with other nations, based upon principle? Or are we a rouge, vengeful state element, that has evinced itself to be no more trustworthy, when it comes to transnational and international accords, then nations like Iraq? Are we the guy who, in his measured and planned rage, is all about himself, or are we, even in our demand for justice, existing interdependently with others in a relationship? Stop talking about others, about dictators (or start taking about ALL of them, and not just Hussein). I don't give a *#*#*#*# about his soul, in the context that he didn't sign on to the American social contract. Bush did. Cheney did. That *#*#*#*#pot Ashcroft did. Rice and Powell did. There's an internal responsibility that comes with that; a leadership role that submits justice, not revenge, and this leadership had not only failed that social contract, they've perverted it by lies and deceit, the types of lies and deceit that tricked the American people into allowing their sons and daughters to go and die in deserts far away, a sanction the American people were NOT willing to give UNTIL they were lied to. Which also makes them murderers. Maybe the call was too much for them; maybe the sacrifice that standing for something can ultimately mean is too much for them to bear, too much for them to articulate to the American people. Maybe our leadership selection process has left us bereft of anyone who can stand for, who can even tell us, the truth anymore. Maybe its been a longtime since we sought the truth from our leaders, rather than seeking "comfort-speech." Again, let's not talk about Hussein defining who we are and what we do; WE define who we are and how we act, not others. WE define that according to something. And that something - the Constitution - has been dismantled by Bush, Ashcroft, and Co. in pursuit of a far-right wing agenda the American people didn't ask for, don't want, and have only accepted because of the fear factor generated by the lies from the top. Should we call the American people to task for being a generation that walks away from their principles so quickly, for getting so frightened so soon, as if there aren't many things much worse than death, as if FRIENDS, and the color of the new kitchen cabinets, and getting excited over Home Alone II was ever important at all? Of course. Should we demand even more with regard to day-to-day integrity and stand-fast-fullness from our leadership, instead of the media-esque qualitites that are more and more fully constituting our selection criteria for leadership? Hell yes. Is this post going to stop YOU defining America by her "enemies," by any external sources, instead of defining America by the one thing we actively sign on to, as adults at least? Hell no, but I tried.
All these guys are member of the American Automobile Association. I checked twice to make sure. You know, it's usually right-wing nutjobs that make a big stink about various "evil" organizations that liberals belong to. By the way, shouldn't you be supporting them? You've got to love this:
Ben you convinced me that Cheney, Perle, Feith and all the PNAC-ers have no influence in US foreign policy. How dumb I was. You opened my eyes. I know you reason about ultimate goals when it comes to Middle East, a precise ultimate goal. It doesn't care if you do it by embracing the worst foolish rightist policies, it doesn't care if innocents will suffer from it, most of them will be ugly "arabs" or "muslims" so... (The new category/ group/ race/ religion to hate). The laughable thing is that these wonderful plans will produce the exact contrary of what they are aimed for. Another sweet PNAC-er writes "Against United Europe" (I posted a thread titled "dividi et impera") because "A new superstate probably isn't in Europeans' interest. It certainly isn't in America's." You should react against this kind of people, willing to buid their fantastic new american century, instead of protecting your sensible eyes from the truth while crying loud "it's just a conspiracy theory, it's just a conspiracy theory". If you let them play their games the disasters you see now will be heaven compared. Those that produced the mess iraq is now, are the same that want now to target Syria. the endless war on terror is nonsense, a useful curtain where these morons hide their real goals. Bombs give fuel to terrorism. They need to raise the level of the conflict to pursue their goals. Hijacking the war on terrorism to attack Iraq is a clear evidence of it. They're megalomaniacs, them and reality go in different directions. You keep on dreaming your dream, thinking America can't ever do the bad. No, you're men and men are faulty. USA now is simply doing what Israel is doing at least since 1967. Pretending to be defending yourselves while you're aggressing. The fantasy goal? Expanding and securing the realm. Beware the dream of the new american century, it could easily transform itself into a nightmare. Unfortunately if so it would be a nightmare for the whole world otherwise I could also care less.