Concacaf Olympic Qualifying Referee Discussion

Discussion in 'Referee' started by rh89, Jan 28, 2020.

  1. rh89

    rh89 Member

    Sep 29, 2015
    OR
    Women
    Costa Rica - Panama
    R: Lucila VENEGAS (CRC)
    AR1: Mayte CHAVEZ (MEX) AR2: Enedina CAUDILLO MEX
    Fourth Official: Francia GONZALEZ (MEX)

    USA - Haiti
    R: Odette HAMILTON (JAM)
    AR1: Stephanie-Dale YEE-SING (JAM)
    AR2: Princess BROWN (JAM)
    Fourth Official: Marie-Soleil BEADOIN (CAN)
     
  2. rh89

    rh89 Member

    Sep 29, 2015
    OR
    MATCH #3: CANADA VS SAINT KITTS AND NEVIS

    Referee: Crystal SOBERS (TRI)

    Assistant Referee 1: Mijensa RENSCH (SUR)

    Assistant Referee 2: Shirley PERELLO (HON)

    Fourth Official: Melissa BORJAS (HON

    MATCH #4: MEXICO VS JAMAICA

    Referee: Ekaterina KOROLEVA (USA)

    Assistant Referee 1: Kathryn NESBITT (USA)

    Assistant Referee 2: Felisha MARISCAL (USA)

    Fourth Official: Tatiana GUZMAN (NCA)
     
  3. rh89

    rh89 Member

    Sep 29, 2015
    OR
    I think Haiti just had a goal called back because of offside on a corner kick? Except there's no offside on a corner kick and no other attacker touched the ball. Wow.
     
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  4. Alex-Ref

    Alex-Ref Member

    Liverpool FC
    United States
    Nov 13, 2019
    Did the AR in the US v. Haiti game just rule out a goal for offside on a corner kick (around 18th minute)?
     
  5. rh89

    rh89 Member

    Sep 29, 2015
    OR
    Video of the incident.

     
  6. akindc

    akindc Member+

    Jun 22, 2006
    Washington, DC
    Takes two to rule out the goal...can’t believe the AR called it, and the CR didn’t overrule it.
     
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  7. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    The media wouldn't play. Where was the restart? Was it possibly a double hit on the corner? Ball set up outside the arc?

    I know it is concacaf, but it couldn't have been offside.
     
  8. TxSooner

    TxSooner Member

    Aug 12, 2011
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Ball was setup on the goal line where it meets the arc. Hard to be offside with the ball positioned like that even on a free kick or in the run of play.

    Maybe the AR saw a phantom foul as a Haiti player was within a yard of the goalkeeper.
     
  9. lil_one

    lil_one Member+

    Nov 26, 2013
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You can't see the actual restart in the clip above (and I can't find a clip that shows it), but the referee right before the camera moves away had her hand up for an indirect kick, so a foul seems unlikely.

    And from the direction the ball comes out on the restart, it looks like the restart was played from near the goal area.

    All indications are that it was indeed an offside call although I'd certainly like to hear other theories.
     
  10. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    Looks like they called offside. Incredible. I don't know how the Haitians didn't go crazy. If you called that at a U9 girls game, you would be besieged.

    They need to have crews from all over, but minimum competency has to also be enforced.
     
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  11. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    As far as I can tell, it was a massive mistake, unfortunately.
     
  12. Lloyd Heilbrunn

    Lloyd Heilbrunn Member+

    Feb 11, 2002
    Jupiter, Fl.
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I know the announcers tried to claim possible interference to try to cover up the error, but they clearly called offside on a corner...
     
  13. rh89

    rh89 Member

    Sep 29, 2015
    OR
    Three comments on further reflection.

    1. I'm surprised how lightly the Haitian players take the call. They were robbed (best we can tell) and yet so little dissent. I'm guessing they didn't expect to win the game anyway, but I'm somewhat glad for their restraint and yet perplexed they weren't more mad.
    2. Is a misapplication like this grounds for a protest? Referees didn't properly apply the laws here. I don't know how that all works (judgment calls are final usually, but does this constitute an error of judgment), and doubt the Haitians want a rematch that could lead to a higher GD, but still.
    3. Does this referee team see another match?
     
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  14. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    1. Players are notorious for being a little light on their specific knowledge of the Laws. This particular nuance, though, is common knowledge IMO so I'm also somewhat surprised. I wouldn't want to see a mass confrontation around the referee, of course, but they got screwed out of a legitimate goal, and an appeal to the referee may well have woken them up enough to correct the mistake.
    2. Possibly, but I don't know the rules on when and how that protest must be made. As for whether it's a judgment call, if the referees' opinion was that there was a touch on the ball after the corner kick that put that player into an offside position, then giving a free kick would technically be the "correct" application of the Law, but let's be real. The video evidence is quite clear that such a touch is impossible so to try to call it a judgment call would be a total cop out. Despite all that, if a protest isn't even possible at this stage (some have said it must be initiated immediately during the match), then this is all moot. This being CONCACAF, I would absolutely believe they would make successful protests as close to impossible as they could.
    3. I don't see how they could possibly see another match in this immediate competition, with the possible exception of the 4th and the other AR if it's determined they had no culpability. Not to be harsh, but to give them further assignments would be an insult to the other officials who haven't been involved in such a significant, match-changing error. Will this take them out of contention for the Olympics itself? I don't know, but I'm sure it won't help.
     
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  15. TxSooner

    TxSooner Member

    Aug 12, 2011
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    The AR forgot this was a CK. The position of the ball when struck also would have negated offside as it was on the goal line if for some reason the no offside on CKs slipped ones mind.

    She must have been focusing strictly at the positioning of the players, heard the ball struck, took the mental snapshot, a player with only the goalkeeper behind her became active, and the flag went up.
     
    jnielsen repped this.
  16. Mikael_Referee

    Mikael_Referee Member+

    Jun 16, 2019
    England
    I agree - AR clearly got excited by determining the offside offence as active, and forgot everything else. Big mistake by the referee too.

    Haiti could actually order the game to be replayed as the LotG was actually violated there, if the restart was IFK for offside (from a corner).
     
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  17. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    What is truly amazing, that the AR makes a complete mental error but then the CR goes along with it. She simply had to ignore the AR, call the goal, and maybe nobody even notices. I don't think any of the American players were ignorant enough to call for offside.

    If second place comes down to Haiti and CR and Goal Difference, could this call come back to have even more significance?

    Of course, this just adds to the reputation of all referees in CONCACAF; where a team went to the World Cup on a goal where the ball never went in the net; or even particularly close. And that is one of the least remarkable calls.
     
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  18. jnielsen

    jnielsen Member+

    May 12, 2012
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    And, am I correct in concluding that there is never interference unless the player interfering is in an offside position?
     
  19. Ghastly Officiating

    Tottenham Hotspur
    United States
    Oct 12, 2017
    What do you mean by interference?
     
  20. jnielsen

    jnielsen Member+

    May 12, 2012
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    In this case, I believe it was blocking the goaltenders line of vision. The offensive player did not touch the goalkeeper or any other player.
     
  21. Lloyd Heilbrunn

    Lloyd Heilbrunn Member+

    Feb 11, 2002
    Jupiter, Fl.
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I believe based upon the announcers' discussion that their conversation about interfering with the goalkeeper, was not the type of interference by an offside player that puts him/her in the play, but was shorthand for a foul on the goalkeeper.

    Either way, it was clearly an improperly called offside.
     
  22. Ghastly Officiating

    Tottenham Hotspur
    United States
    Oct 12, 2017
    The player has to be in an offside position (closer to the goal than either the ball or the second to last defender) AND the ball has to come from a touch by a teammate AND it can’t be directly from aaa corner kick, a throw in, or a goal kick.

    A player could be in an offside position but if it is not last played by a teammate OR if it comes directly from one of those restarts, they are not penalized for being in an offside position.
     
  23. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    This is the theory put forward in the telecast and by some on social media. However, there is no rule against screening the goal keeper or any player. You can become active for offside, if you are in an offside position, and screening the goal keeper. But you can't be onside, and be called for interfering in that way. And of course, the player cannot be offside on a corner kick.
     
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  24. jnielsen

    jnielsen Member+

    May 12, 2012
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Yes, and there was definitely no foul on the goalkeeper at all.
     
  25. lil_one

    lil_one Member+

    Nov 26, 2013
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It doesn't surprise me honestly. In my experience of mostly watching women's soccer, this actually tends to be more of the norm. We've seen outrageous calls in CONCACAF, but women's soccer not only in CONCACAF but worldwide has seen some egregious ones and the swarming of the referee or whole teams dissenting is the exception, not the rule. I'll also point out that many of the Haitian players are young and were on the U20 team only a couple of years ago. For most of them, I'd guess its their first competitive match against pro players.
     

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