CONCACAF Champions League Coefficient

Discussion in 'CONCACAF Champions League' started by ArsenalMetro, Sep 30, 2009.

  1. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    To be fair, only Mexican, US and 1 CFU club are guaranteed CCL until 2023. Forge had to play and beat teams that eventually ends up or have been recurring CCL teams in the past such as Olimpia, Tauro and others.

    They've earned their points despite a bad format
     
  2. ArsenalMetro

    ArsenalMetro Member+

    Arsenal
    United States
    Aug 5, 2008
    Chicago, IL
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Same points available per match, fewer bonus points.

    The issue is that Canada's numbers are always going to be funky with so few representatives. The UEFA equivalent is Liechtenstein - if FC Vaduz got bought by some trillionaire and started dominating European football, the Liechtensteiner national coefficient would go through the roof. And, under the old UEFA club coefficient system (they changed it in 2018, but this is based on the old one), the other Liechtensteiner clubs would benefit despite being semi-pro at best.

    The Canada stuff will smooth out as CPL teams and their performances get integrated into the data. Forge is just a weird quirk at this point.
     
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  3. Yoshou

    Yoshou Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Thanks! Although, Liechtenstein isn't directly comparable since they don't also have a national league that teams can qualify for continental competitions through, which seems to be the bigger issue here. If FC Vaduz were to be turned into a power house and Liechtenstein were to earn another spot, the team that qualified after them would be the 2nd best Liechtenstein based on their qualification method because the only way to qualify for a Liechtenstein team to qualify for continental competitions is through their national cup competition. That's not the case with the CPL clubs... But then, that's a whole different issue since, IMHO, the Canadian MLS clubs should be treated like the Welsh clubs that play in the English pyramid and should be qualifying through the US competitions and not through Canadian competitions.

    Perhaps? But until the expansion, the Forge are going to have an advantage over the MLS clubs (US and Canadian) in that they'll be able to run up their score against El Salvadore and Antigua clubs.
     
  4. nfitz

    nfitz Member

    Aug 20, 2007
    Toronto
    It used to be that way, but CONCACAF upended that by allowing spots for a lower tier league that could not be won by teams in a better league in the same country.

    But hang on ... look at Europe. When English Premier League teams in Wales participate in Europa League, the EUFA coefficient points to to England, not Wales. And maybe that should be the solution here too.

    Yes, that's a good point. The points go to the country where the team plays in, not where it's based. So Cardiff's points go to the English EUFA coefficient, and Monaco. So the Canadian points should be exclusively for CPL, Ontario 1, and Quebec league teams, while MLS participants go to the USA. At least after the new format starts.
     
  5. Yoshou

    Yoshou Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think you quoted the wrong post of mine, but I agree. :) The Canadian MLS teams should be qualifying for CCL the same way US teams do.. Via MLS and USOC.

    The post you quoted was me thinking UEFA gave more weight to wins in UCL than Europa.
     
  6. nfitz

    nfitz Member

    Aug 20, 2007
    Toronto
    Oops, I thought you were rising the whole Wales thing. Either way, thinking about that made me realize how it should be fixed. Which it will be pretty much with the new system.

    I'm surprised you weren't aware that a Canadian club is guaranteed as spot!
     
  7. Yoshou

    Yoshou Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I do mention it in post #703, so it’s applicable either way.
     
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  8. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Lower tier league that finished 7th out of 22 in their 2nd participation in CONCACAF League. That makes most of central american leagues the same and no one should bother play CCL except MLS and Liga MX

    Canadian MLS teams will qualify via MLS + League Cup + Canadian Championship. How about you quite your whining.

    You're right, I'd add that they should move there altogether with your silly proposal
     
  9. SiberianThunderT

    Sep 21, 2008
    DC
    Club:
    Saint Louis Athletica
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    That argument may be correct in effect, but it's entirely wrong "by the book". Both leagues are designated as "DI" by the CSA, so the CPL is not a "lower tier league", at least officially speaking. I agree it's a frustrating and silly "equality" though.

    IIRC, the Welsh-English teams are only allowed to compete in English competitions, so to mirror that here, we would need to ban the Can-MLS clubs from the Canadian championship (among other things too? IDK)
     
  10. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    MLS is not sanctioned by the CSA.

    CPL is the only D1 league in Canada officially sanctioned by them. They have granted special permission to 3 owners to play in MLS while being based in their territory.

    Otherwise - you should be ridiculing every CONCACAF league that are sanctioned Division 1 by their governing bodies
     
  11. SiberianThunderT

    Sep 21, 2008
    DC
    Club:
    Saint Louis Athletica
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    Huh, really? I thought every team had to be sanctioned for play in some way, and not just a handwaved "special permission" of sorts. Can individual clubs be sanctioned and that's where my confusion is? Either way, if CPL is the *only* sanctioned DI league in Canada, that nerfs nfitz's take even further.
    I wasn't trying to ridicule DI leagues of different strengths in general, I was just saying I thought it silly for their to be multiple DI leagues of noticeably different strengths in the same country. And if that's not the case anyway, then the point is moot.
     
  12. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Yes, the 3 MLS clubs are sanctioned individually by the CSA since they are based here in their territory but not MLS itself. FIFA rules forbids clubs from competing in another league's competition except under specific circumstance which they met back in 2006 to 2012 when they joined MLS.

    My apologies, I've misspoke. Yes, the confusion isn't ideal I agree.

    I know that wikipedia shows a pyramid implying that MLS is recognized as D1 in Canada - but in reality, the league's isn't theirs to sanction in the first place. They have no say in what happens with the league but they have some say over the 3 clubs themselves.

    Officially, only CPL is recognized as Division1 in Canada by the CSA
     
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  13. nfitz

    nfitz Member

    Aug 20, 2007
    Toronto
    #713 nfitz, Apr 8, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2021
    I'm not sure your point. I've commented previously that CPL is on the same level, and even exceeds some of the semi-professional Central American leagues.

    I'm not sure what you think I'm whining about. I've not objected to CPL teams being included. I'm not sure why you are being uncivil here .

    I'm surprised, I thought you'd have preferred to include the Canadian MLS teams with the US, rather than Canada (similar to how the English Premier League teams in Wales are treated).

    Please try and be more civil when discussing things. No one has to agree with you. You are new here so I'll cut you some slack, but really, it's not cool.

    Yes technically ... I suppose I should have said "lower quality" instead of "lower tier", but they tend to take that as some kind of personal insult, so I was trying to stay neutral.

    They keep flipping hot and cold on that. Since 2011 they've all been allowed to compete in the Welsh competitions, but the quality level there is so low, that they seldom do, and they can't qualify for Europa League that way. Both Cardiff City and Newport County are playing in the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020–21_Welsh_League_Cup this year!

    Possibly, but when UEFA stopped letting Welsh teams qualify through the Welsh Cup, it also made them qualify through the English Cup. So then they would play in the US Open Cup.

    Which is great with me - would be nice to see some variety. But on the other hand, is it good for CPL? Bringing high-quality teams to CPL cities would I think be good for expansion of the sport.
     
  14. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    #714 Robert Borden, Apr 8, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2021
    CPL is pro - just stop

    • allowing spots for a lower tier league that could not be won by teams in a better league in the same country.
    MLS is not sanctioned by the CSA which was explained to you in the Voyageurs Forum yet you chose to argue

    The clubs are based in Canada - Continental competition is by countries and not by league. You're arguing that the points they gained should count for the US which would make sense if they were based in the US. Nothing controversial here

    Lastly - we aren't Wales. You cannot compare them to US/Canada, I thought what happened to the Ottawa Fury and Ontario clubs in PDL made that pretty clear. Even BC soccer has already threatened the BC clubs from pulling them out of USL if they didn't "willfully joined the new BC League 1

    You suppose?
    Lower quality is a given - no one would ever argue that.

    Lower tier = you're being told you're wrong - yet you kept arguing on the V Forum. Glad you finally see the difference
     
  15. nfitz

    nfitz Member

    Aug 20, 2007
    Toronto
    Sure, it's professional. But fully-professional? A minimum CPL salary of about US$7,000 in a place where minimum wage is about US$20,000 a year?

    Perhaps if it's just some academy player or something like that getting that, then maybe it is fully-professional - but that wasn't the case in 2019, and I haven't seen any numbers for 2021 yet.

    I didn't say anywhere in this thread that CSA sanctioned MLS. But I'm surprised you are unaware that CSA has the power to stop Canadian teams playing in CPL.

    Which would actually match the dictionary definition of "not sanction".

    You are using tier in a legalistic sense, with a very precise definition.

    If I was to say that a corrupt politician like Ford wasn't in the same tier as a great politician, then that wouldn't be talking about the regulations of FIFA and CSA.

    It just means one is a much lower standard of quality.

    Again - you are new here. Please be civil. Not everyone here shares your anti-Toronto and anti-US prejudice.
     
  16. Yoshou

    Yoshou Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    They got shamed into a minimum of $20k about a month ago.
     
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  17. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Why are you using US dollars to try and further your point? ;)

    So you're saying that MLS wasn't a pro league until they were paying a living wage.

    Facts (because you omit them when you feel like it)
    • Player spending must fall between $650,000 and $850,000
    • coach/technical range is between $350,000 and $550,000
    • Combined, the two must fall under $1.2 million
    • The cap includes salaries, housing and travel allowances and individual player bonuses but not "league or club accomplishment bonuses."
    • the salary cap accounts for some 57 per cent of team revenue — and could reach some 70 per cent factoring in bonuses
    • it takes more $4 million a year to run a CPL team
    • the salary cap for 2020 is the same as it was in (2019), due to COVID and the shortened 2020 season in 2020. The plan is to raise it in 2022
    • Average player pay in 2021 is around $40,000, which may include housing, car allowances and incentive bonuses
    • Top end of the salary scale is $77,000
    • There will be a minimum player salary of $22,000 in 2021, which including other compensation is expected to reach $26,000
    • The minimum does not cover those on U-Sports contracts - those deals would be in the range of $10,000 to $12,000
    • These figures don't include $45k of individual bonuses available to be earned each years
    • These figures don't include up to $178k (depending on progress) in bonuses given out by the league to the CPL representative in Concacaf

    See above - and you're saying that MLS was semi-pro when it started. ok...I'm not sure you know the difference between a pro and semi-pro league, it goes beyond just salaries.

    Nice backtracking there. ;)

    I love all Toronto team and the city (I actually leave here now) except TFC management and the Maple Leafs -->I was born in Montreal...sue me :rolleyes:

    Not being a fan of Canadian clubs in MLS doesn't make me anti-US. If anything - I'd want those 3 vacated spots to go to other US cities that deserve to be part of MLS:cool:
     
  18. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    $22K actually - as you pointed out yourself in the CPL thread, they got "shamed" to do it while MLS just didn't care until wages went up.

    It's not about who's better than the other, those owners are all the same deep down
     
  19. nfitz

    nfitz Member

    Aug 20, 2007
    Toronto
    It's not entirely clear - they are still allowed some players at US$7K. Perhaps just developmental? Still - that's the future. It's not even clear if there's going to be a proper season this year.

    I used US$ because almost everyone here is not Canadian, and many might not have any idea what a Canadian $ is worth

    I really don't know the wage history before they moved into Canada.

    But hang on, CPL and MLS were always professional leagues. But there's a big difference between professional and fully-professional. CFL is professional - but certainly not fully-professional.

    Please don't tell me what I'm saying. I have no idea what it was, and haven't even thought about it. I didn't watch MLS in the 1990s.

    Looking back at https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/m...ears-from-the-beginning-to-currently.2033348/ it says that in 1996, the league minimum for the top 18 players per team was US$24,000 - About CAN$32,000 in 1996 $. Canadian CPI since 1996 is about 56%.

    So the minimum salary in the first year of MLS for the 18th player on the worst team is about CAN$50K - 5 times higher than CPL.

    I haven't really looked at this before. But that is nowhere near semi-pro. Why are you suggesting it's comparable?

    No backtracking - my opinion or words haven't change (other than realising that MLS was so high in year one!). But you keep trying to reinterpret what I'm saying. I know what I'm saying, and I'm sorry that I have left ambiguity. But me clarifying what you've misinterpreted isn't "backtracking" and it's unnecessary hostile for you to suggest that.

    Hey, I'm an Expos fan ... went to school in Quebec. But hang on ... TFC shares it's management with the 3 of the 4 other big teams in Toronto.

    You just want the CAN$500 million per team for each MLS spot to go into the CPL coffers. :)
     
  20. Yoshou

    Yoshou Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Do you have a link for this? The announcement they made last month made no mention of a $7k salary. That was about what the USports players were reportedly paid previously, but the most recent announcement didn’t mention a lower salary.
    Well... there is a pandemic going on and Canada is currently blowing up... But they did a good job with the Island Games last year and they are considering some variant of that this year as well.
     
  21. Yoshou

    Yoshou Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That being said.. time to move this discussion to a CPL thread. :)
     
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  22. nfitz

    nfitz Member

    Aug 20, 2007
    Toronto
    Gosh, there was a discussion somewhere. Not finding it quickly. Wilfred Laurier seems to knows everything - perhaps they can tell us! If not, I can dig.

    Yeah, that slipped out a few days later.

    Situation is changing here almost hourly. Cases have risen 50% across the country in the last 2-3 weeks. We are starting to approach the case levels that are currently in the USA, so as you can imagine, there's a massive shutdown, curfew extensions, and legally-enforced stay-at-home orders.

    Though I'd expect something in the late summer, like last year. But I think they were hoping to be in home stadiums in late May/early June - and that's looking increasingly unlikely with the third wave surging.
     
  23. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    You're talking about the Usports contracts which is already massive for university students to get paid on pro contracts without losing their scholarship. My understanding is that not even the NCAA is doing that.

    If those players wants a full pro contract, they'd have to renounce their Usports status and scholarship. You talk like you know everything and you didn't even know that...

    I'd expect you to do your homework but let's start as of 2007 when TFC joined the league. Going with your logic, you just painted MLS as a semi-pro league within their first decade of existence which is absurd

    Nice backtracking again...you just made something else up...
    fyi CFL minimum is $65k

    If you're going to use sources, pull something more official
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/sports/mls/longterm/2007/salaries_07.html

    Looks like as of 2007, the guaranteed minimum was $30k. Reserves were making either $12k or $17k.

    CPL bottom/rookie/reserve player will make a minimum of $22k as of 2021 which should reach around $26k with bonuses. Depending on individual/team/domestic cup/CONCACAF performance, more bonuses may increase that minimum further up. Top guys makes up to $77k + bonuses.

    Was MLS any less professional in 2007? Or 2005 or 2003? Just stop;)

    See you in the CPL thread.
     
  24. nfitz

    nfitz Member

    Aug 20, 2007
    Toronto
    #724 nfitz, Apr 8, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2021
    Still much higher than minimum wage and the CPL 2019/2020 salaries. Recall I said 18th player ... not the developmental players.

    Unlike CPL - MLS was fully-professional from day one. $7000 a year for players in the starting line-up is professional, not not fully-professional.

    I was 100% wrong about that ... I've no idea where I got that idea. I saw an article at some point last year talking about what CFL players had to do in the off-season to get money ... and I should have questioned it more. I'm sorry about that, and I beg your forgiveness!
     
  25. Yoshou

    Yoshou Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    MLS’s minimum salary wasn’t much better... But, again. Take it over to a CPL thread. :)
     

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