I still haven't seen a reply, but Hall is definitely in a good position to see the action, and Tovar is in the proper position. However, I can see how Tovar could miss any touch by Kleber since he is screened by the other offside player! I would guess Tovar couldn't tell if Kleber touched the ball, and Hall couldn't tell if Kleber was in an offside position. The mandate of when in doubt keep it down, helped get this one wrong. Hall could have gone over to conference with Tovar, but that wouldn't indicate confidence in their decisions.
This is what I thought happened when I saw it. I can't remember, did Tovar stand still or run up the line. I was focused on Kleber destroying the corner flag.
IASoFan, sorry, but I have to say that Fabio appears NOT to be in the proper position. He is not lined up with the 2nd last defender - he is lined up with the attacker. OK, here's a really dumb question. I know this was extra-time - when in extratime? Was it near the start of either period? Is it possible that, just for a second, Fabio "forgot" who was defending and lined up with an attacker? I know the shot comes in from a player on the same team, but late on in a game that has been physically and mentally draining, is it possible that a momentary lapse of concentration causes him to line up with the wrong guy and keep his flag down as deflecting a ball into your OWN GOAL is not an offence? Once (if) you then realise your mistake, it's a tough one to call back. Maybe better to hope that it was close enough to get away with it; maybe you wouldn't even realise it till you saw the tape. Just a thought.
but i mean...judging by his position, even if he isn't in line with the last defender..Kleber is off by more than a meter
the AR was not in the proper position, but it seems he still should have been able to determine the attacker was offside. The theory about the other attacker unsighting the AR from the deflection seems plausible. So does the mental fatigue / got the defending team mixed up theory. However, both of these errors seemingly could have been resolved by a ref/AR discussion. IASocfan, it is more important to get the call right than to maintain the appearance of confidence-- especially when you aren't actually that confident. I don't know if they conferenced after this goal or not. We are taught at fairly high levels in the USA that the most important thing is to get the call right. If you need to take a minute to discuss things with the AR, or both ARs, or the 4th, or EVERYBODY, you do so. Especially when it is such an important decision, as this one was.
You are correct - that is what we teach. HOWEVER, if you dont think there's an issue there's nothing to talk about. From Brian's perspective, the ball hits the back of the net and he would look over at his AR. If he sees Fabio sprinting back towards the halfway line (as apparently he was), that's a very clear definitive statement. He is not holding a flag up signalling "offside"; he is not standing still that would indicate "we may have a problem"; he (presumably) is not beeping him; he is flying down the line - a clear signal "good goal". As an experienced crew, that means "we have nothing to talk about". So, Brian has no reason to go over. Again, the AR's message is clear - "it's a good goal, Brian". Now, as far as Fabio is concerned - he's not thinking that he has anything to talk about. If he did, he wouldn't have gone racing down the touchline. So, again, he doesn't think there's anything to talk about. He thinks it is a good goal, and has communicated this by his actions. The bottom line? It loks like Fabio made a (big) mistake. BUT, he did so in a manner that suggested that he was absolutely certain that he was right. You dont call over a referee to discuss something when you don't think there's any problem. We also teach that.
AR2 was Fabio Tovar. He is our newest FIFA AR. I saw the match and at first I thought offside. But all of the camera angles were from the opposite side of Tovar. From his angle I could see how it looked as though the ball wasn't touched. The ball came off of a deflection by a defender and then it appeared to glance off of the offside player. It was very quick and the camera angles are not obvious.
If he attempts to play the ball at all, he's offside whether he actually succeeds in touching it or not.
Brian probably saw the deflection but wasn't sure the player was offside. Fabio probably saw the offside but wasn't sure there was a deflection. So why did Tovar sprint up the line? Horrible decision on his part, there was no way he could be sure there wasn't a deflection. If he didn't see the offside from his position then he plain needs to work on his abilities. The crew absolutely needed to conference in this case.
Decent discussion and GREAT tv screen shot, btw! Again, a horrible disgrace. As the screen shot shows, Hall was in a fine position to see both the offside positioning of both CA attackers as well as the shot that deflects at least 35 degrees. The keeper seems to have it covered then it is redirected to his left. I am all for cutting folks a break - even refs -- but this was a horribly blown call in a Final of a co,petition of the highest level in the confed. For whoever threw in the little comment with the smirk saying it's the ARs call --- hey, it's the Center's game so grow some sack and take some responsibility. Sure, the Toluc. players freaked out after this, but just a few minutes later B. Hall wasn't in quick enough after the foul that led to the double reds -- which he should have easily anticipated once everyone's dander had been brought up. It must have been a looong flight home for the poor guy.
If and only if, by making an attempt or movement towards the ball, he causes the defenders to react to him. See the Liverpool match last week, much debated play where one Liverpool attacker in a clear offside position dummies, but does not touch the ball. Defenders stay back in their line, hands in the air waving for offside--no defender near the ball. Untouched ball rolls to second, onside Liverpool attacker, who shoots and scores. Goal counted as good, on the argument that the offside attacker's dummy did not cause any change in the defense. The Toluca situation was very different. I'm just pointing out that an attempt at the ball, in and of itself, is not necessarily sufficient to draw the offside call. Difficult judgement calls may need to be made.
Good observation. I was thinking the same thing after seeing the highlights on TV last night. Surprised there hasn't been more discussion about it around here. That scuffle definitely seemed preventable if the referee had gottne in there sooner.
Agreed Allan, Tovar was not in-line with the next to last defender. He was running to get into position,and for reasons that are not apparent, was a good yard back from the correct position. Play was not so dynamic that it would be understandable that he lost a step in the attack. Looked to be part of the normal build-up deep into the attacking third and he was slow to react to the movements of the next to last defender.
Absolutely, this was the play that changed the game, a quick discussion between Hall and Tovar was required prior to the restart.
I was under the impression that they did confer. There was a long pause after the goal (longer than usual), and the commentators were saying that the goal was disallowed for about a minute. Only when i saw the kick-off restart did i realise that the goal stood.
tovar states that he did not think the guy was in the offside position and hall does not know for sure if he is because as a few have noted who is on the back post area. If Tovar stands at attention then Hall does 1 of 2 things conference or says No Goal. Here is a mechanic that was discussed 3 weeks ago on a conference call after the DC united Red Bulls game. If Tovar stands at attention and there is a conference. It would have been easy because Hall could have said Tovar is the guy that Just shattered the corner flag the one in the offside position? Yes. Then we have offside. And a caution to the GoalKeeper for Dissent and a caution to Kleber for the assult on the corner flag. Why does ESSE send Brian Hall with A 4 month old rookie assistant referee. Why not Hall Lowry Clement Kennedy. They are all leaving the list for mandatory retirement. Another reason to FIRE the Heads of referee division In My Opinion
tovar states that he did not think the guy was in the offside position and hall does not know for sure if he is because as a few have noted who is on the back post area. If Tovar stands at attention then Hall does 1 of 2 things conference or says No Goal. Here is a mechanic that was discussed 3 weeks ago on a conference call after the DC united Red Bulls game. If Tovar stands at attention and there is a conference. It would have been easy because Hall could have said Tovar is the guy that Just shattered the corner flag the one in the offside position? Yes. Then we have offside. And a caution to the GoalKeeper for Dissent and a caution to Kleber for the assult on the corner flag. Why does ESSE send Brian Hall with A 4 month old rookie assistant referee. Why not Hall Lowry Clement Kennedy. They are all leaving the list for mandatory retirement. Another reason to FIRE the Heads of referee division In My Opinion
Well another reason to FIRE ESSE and A**kisser Paul Tamberino. And for sure incompetent Julie Illaqua. I mean Tamberino places a guy at national camp that has not even enough games and then places him on the MLS list. Esse is only in it for himself. Lets make natual born americans look bad on on International TV instead of putting the best out there and say HE come get us. No he puts out there a poor poor assistant referee that cannot even run the line in the "top Division" in the USA