CONCACAF Champions - Disgrace!

Discussion in 'Referee' started by MrZedd, Apr 20, 2006.

  1. MrZedd

    MrZedd New Member

    Jul 18, 2003
    oh..

    my..

    god..


    Can anyone explain how B. Hall missed that offside call?

    Nothng like affecting the outcome of a champions tournement final. Terrible, just terrible.
     
  2. Caesar

    Caesar Moderator
    Staff Member

    Mar 3, 2004
    Oztraya
    What on earth are you rabbiting on about?
     
  3. bluedevils

    bluedevils Member

    Nov 17, 2002
    USA
    are you saying the referee failed to spot the AR's flag for offside, or the AR never flagged for offside or what?
     
  4. Chas (Psyatika)

    Oct 6, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Crystal Palace FC
    Brian Hall didn't miss anything. The AR never put the flag up because there was no way to tell if the offside player actually interfered with play. Sure, maybe the goalkeeper had him in his line of sight, but the ball came from the side and the GK could clearly see it the whole way, but was unable to save it.

    From the camera angles given, I couldn't tell if the offside player touched the ball. I'm pretty sure (about 75%) that the player did not touch the ball, but no angle was conclusive. If slow motion video can't even conclusively determine if a player TOUCHED a ball, then imagine how the referee and AR had to get by. From Hall's Angle, the ball whizzes by the keeper, who would not have saved regardless of if the offside player was there. From the AR's angle, the ball whizzes past the keeper and there is no indication that the offside player deflected the shot or otherwise did anything to put off the goalkeeper. Goal stands. Good decision given the unfortunate circumstances.

    Toluca absolutely deserved to lose that match, any way you look at it. If Brian Hall is, as you say, "disgraceful", then how do you explain the pathetic behaviour of the Toluca players? Toluca defender knees an America attacker whilst the attacker is on the ground well after the whistle had gone (he was a few metres away when the whistle sounded), and BOTH players get sent off (the attacker retaliated). Something like 4 Toluca officials are dismissed during the extra time interval. A players sent off for Toluca stays on the pitch and punches (closed fist) an America player. Ever after the match is over, and you see match officials setting up the award presentation, a Toluca players runs after an America player as if he was going to beat the hell out of him (had to be restrained by what was left of the Toluca staff).

    But yeah, that Brian Hall...what a disgrace!
     
  5. USSF REF

    USSF REF Member

    Red Bull NY
    United States
    Nov 6, 2005
    Rochester, NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Is there any place I can find this match to watch it? I would like to watch it.
    OR at least... just this play?
     
  6. Chas (Psyatika)

    Oct 6, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Crystal Palace FC
    I'm checking re-air dates on FSC now..

    EDIT: Today at 1pm, FSC. It happened in extra time, so feel free to skip the first 90 minutes :)
     
  7. JohnR

    JohnR Member+

    Jun 23, 2000
    Chicago, IL
    The player was so close to the ball that you can't even tell if he touched the ball when you watch the replay, and yet he wasn't involved with the play?

    Well now.
     
  8. Chas (Psyatika)

    Oct 6, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Crystal Palace FC
    Well, no, he wasn't involved. He got out of the way of the play. He was at the centre of the field, and the shot came in from the right. The goalkeeper saw it the entire way, and the ball would have gone in whether the offside player was there or not. From the replays, it also looks like a defender gets a deflection in, which ultimately caused the goal, but that is also not conclusive. As one of the referee forum trolls likes to say, "if in doubt, keep the flag down". That's what the AR did.

    Hall and his AR even talked after the play. Or at least they must have, because the commentators thought the goal was disallowed after a short while. They were still saying no goal even after Toluca were clearly taking a kick-off at the centre circle :D

    Oh, and USSF_REF: i have a doctor's appointment at 3:15, but if i'm around for the incidents, i'll make a video and post it here.
     
  9. JohnR

    JohnR Member+

    Jun 23, 2000
    Chicago, IL
    Obviously, I didn't see the play ... however, several who did on the MLS boards are maintaining that the incident wasn't even close, that it was one of the most obvious offsides that anybody will ever see.

    Would be interesting to see the video.
     
  10. Chas (Psyatika)

    Oct 6, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Crystal Palace FC
    Yeah, i guess i didn't mention that. The player was in an offside position by yards. The question here is about involvement. I (and apparently Brian Hall) argue that the player was not involved with active play.
     
  11. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Who was the AR?
     
  12. USSF REF

    USSF REF Member

    Red Bull NY
    United States
    Nov 6, 2005
    Rochester, NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That would be sweet, though... I still want to watch the whole game - so I'll record it anyway :). But thanks!

    AND

    We all know what happens when Brian Hall doesn't think a player is involved in play. Especially if that player doesn't distract any opponents... :rolleyes:
     
  13. Wreave

    Wreave Member

    May 4, 2005
    Colorado Springs, CO
    Maybe Brian is playing chicken with Alfred?

    I can see the next memo... "Once again, a player deliberately moved to this particular offside position solely for the purpose of diverting the goalkeeper's attention..."
     
  14. GdeLata

    GdeLata New Member

    Nov 1, 2002
    You obviously didn't see the game or if you did...then please don't ref any of my games! Kleber (not "the player") was in an offside position and redirected the ball into the goal, and then claimed the goal as a result (in fact the goal was officially given to him also). Redirecting the ball into the net and away from the dive of Cristante ("the goalkeeper" in your idiom), who was following the original path of the shot, is involvement. Secondly, Kleber as you say was clearly offsides. I doubt Brian Hall was arguing lack of involvement as I am quite certain he saw the shot redirected (unless you have spoken to him which I doubt). Having said that, the mistake was NOT Brian Hall's fault. The linesman rather than flagging offside put his flag down and ran back to the center circle immediately after the ball went into the net, signaling a goal. Brian Hall relied on his linesman and signaled a goal, assuming the ball had been redirected from an onside position, which is of course fine.
     
  15. Chas (Psyatika)

    Oct 6, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Crystal Palace FC
    So, we disagree on something, and don't know the names of random Mexican league players, and therefore i must not have seen the game, and am incapable of officiating. Right....whatever makes you feel mighty.

    For the record, i would have given the offside if i were the AR, claiming interference with the goalkeeper. It wasn't given, and the original poster wanted to know why, so i gave some reasons to justify the no-call. Any good lawyer can argue both sides of the case successfully. Not to say that i'm a good lawyer, or even a lawyer, but it's the same point.
     
  16. CheveLoco

    CheveLoco Member

    Apr 19, 2005
    San Diego, CA
    i'm no referee but doesnt the rule state that it'll be an offside if the player that is out of play tries to interfere and take advantage of his position, the player doesn't have to touch the ball for an offside to be called. Kleber was clearly in an offside position and tried to kick the ball hence taking advantage of his position.
     
  17. bluedevils

    bluedevils Member

    Nov 17, 2002
    USA
    I didn't dig for a match report yet, but it looked like George Gansner was on 1 line and a short guy on the other - possibly Nate Clement. Both those guesses could be wrong, as I wouldn't have expected them to get the nod over our other FIFA ARs for this fairly big assignment, based on past assignments.

    EDIT: Well, I just dug and can't find anything. The write-up on the CONCACAF site mentions "B. Hall" as the referee but no ARs are listed. The FIFA website with a short write-up does not have the info, either. The US Soccer Pro assignments do not list this match.

    It shouldn't be this hard to learn such basic information about a match of this magnitude.
     
  18. Wreave

    Wreave Member

    May 4, 2005
    Colorado Springs, CO
    The law says "gains an advantage", not "tries to gain an advantage".

    Just to help you, "gains an advantage" is typically interpreted as screening the keeper or defender. It's an advantage for the team, not the player.
     
  19. IASocFan

    IASocFan Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 13, 2000
    IOWA
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If he did NOT touch the ball, and if he did NOT effect the play of any of the defenders, then he didn't take advantage of being offside. The goal should stand.

    Since Kleber was credited with the goal, the controversy is whether he really touched the ball or not.
     
  20. CheveLoco

    CheveLoco Member

    Apr 19, 2005
    San Diego, CA
    isnt he gaining advantage by distracting the keeper when trying to kick the ball?
     
  21. CheveLoco

    CheveLoco Member

    Apr 19, 2005
    San Diego, CA
    and from the official rule:


    *An attacker in an offside position is making any gesture or movement which deceives or distracts an opposing player.

    *An attacker in an offside position is obstructing the goal keeper's line of vision. He should be penalised because he prevents from playing or being able to play the ball.
     
  22. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Because he's the CR, and offside is the AR's call. :rolleyes:
     
  23. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No, that's "interfering with an opponent".

    "Gaining an advantage" is actually "gaining an advantage by being in that position". It describes situations where players are not initially involved in active play, but gain an advantage from the position afterwards...the two most obvious scenarioes are a rebound off the post or a rebound off the goalkeeper.
     
  24. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    CONCACAF never lists ARs, for some reason. And FIFA usually doesn't put match reports up, other than for their own tournaments. You're right, though, either USSF or CONCACAF should have this info available.

    Anyway, since Strickland and Barkey are in Germany right now (and have worked almost exclusively with Stott this past year) it makes sense that they weren't the ARs. Hall has historically worked a lot with Lowry and very recently he's worked many CONCACAF matches with Supple and Gansner. Supple's the AR involved in the Red Bull/DCU controversy. And Gansner is the AR that got lauded for getting the big call right in the Revs/Fire playoff game last year. Either way, I'd be very interested to know who the AR was and to see the replay of the goal.
     
  25. Bob Morocco

    Bob Morocco Member+

    Aug 11, 2003
    Billings, MT
    Kleber touched the ball so this argument doesn't matter. The AR who blew the call looked hispanic.
     

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