Normally I would post something like this in the Politics forum, but it would turn into a name-calling match, along with a "Bash George Bush" party in about 6 posts. Needless to say, you guys in here are are lever headed and might actually answer this. Here's the question: PBS (the public television network here in the States) is running a short series on The American Revolutionary War from the British perspective. My question is this: what is taught in school concerning that war (and the War of 1812 shortly thereafter)? Causes, political concerns, etc? Here the whole thing is pretty much "dumbed down" in the public schools and most kids are taught that basically the main cause was the "Taxation without representation" issue. In college, of course, the teaching is a little more in depth, but for the average Joe Schmo here in the US the taxes are the Alpha and Omega of the whole thing. It's not surprising that the school give such a simple explanation especially since 60 to 70 percent of US high schoolers can't find Canada on a map. In addition to what is taught in schools in the UK, are there any hard feelings left over? Do people roll their eyes when the news shows any of our Independence Day celebrations, or do people just generally not care? It's very odd that the US and the UK are such strong allies with our countries past history. I mean, RvN was going on about the Germany - Holland match was payback for WWII, so maybe some people do feel a bit miffed about it. I read somewhere that the reason that a good portion of the bad guys in US movies have English accents is that in our national collective subconscious we still see England as somewhat of an enemy (All the Imperial leaders in the Star Wars movies had English accents, as well as Sean Connery playing a Russian sub captain in The Hunt For Red October). I realy can't wait to see what you guys think the feeling is. Again, sorry for being so off-topic here.
I know nothing about this, because I was never taught this in school.. Like RvN we are raised to hate the Germans for the 2 world wars they started.. Basically we don't care, it's not an important date in our history..
Well, from what I understand, the reason so many of the actors in the Star Wars series were English was because they were cheap. Considering that most of the movies were shot in England, it's not that far-fetched. It's an interesting question you raise Coach. Another log or two for the fire: In the recent movie, "Master & Commander: Far Side Of The World," the enemy is French. In the book, it's a US ship that haunts Captain Jack and his crew. In Mel Gibson's jingoistic, "The Patriot, " one of the most evil film characters in recent memory is the English officer played by Jason Issacs.
I haven't read "Master & Commander" but have seen the film. They do mention in the film that the ship is "Yankee built" and I know that privateers were only very loosely associated with a specific country, i.e., whoever was paying them. Nevertheless, Coach's question is interesting. I recently finished reading McCullough's biography of John Adams and it talks about Adams' attempts at negotiations with factions in the English government who were sympathetic to colonial independence in order to broker a peace to the war. I'm sure this group was a minority but apparently there were those within the government that thought (for various reasons) that the colonies should be independent (or at least not hindered) It also mentions how Adams was ambassador to England immediately following the war and that he was actually warmly received...even by George III himself. Then of course there is the other side of the coin which involves the unresolved tensions from the revolution that continued to fester until the War of 1812. It's all quite interesting stuff but sadly my knowledge of that period of history isn't as good as others. By way of anecdote most of my English friends don't give much of a thought to the whole independence thing but I would never claim to know whether this sentiment is how the majority of English feel.
I don't remember being taught about the American Revolutionary War in school, although I admit history wasn't one of the subjects I studied after 14. I don't know if it is included in the GCSE (exams at 16 yrs old) or A level (exams at 18 yrs old) curriculums (or should that be curricula?) at all. Thinking about it, so many countries fought the British for their independence from the empire that if all were covered in history lessons here then there would be little time to teach kids about any history that actually happened here in Britain. Along with Mad Theory I don't think the war itself or your fourth of July celebrations register with people here in Britain. The baddie in the Bond film where Teri Hatcher gets killed (Tomorrow Never Dies?) was English too and Alan Rickman steals the show in every film where he's a baddie (Die Hard, Robin Hood etc.). I like it when British actors are the baddies, do you really think American audiences would be put off by an American accented baddie? I can see how if Master & Commander actually had an American ship as the bad guys then it would have been hard to release in the US.
God know, I think we get a certain satisfaction knowing we ruled to world first Thats cos hes an idiot.... Prolly cos it was mostly shot in Pinewood studios, England? Isnt he a scot? IF so that makes him no more English than a Mountie is American
To add to this comment, I studied History at GCSE, A-Level and at University. Although I could of taken a module at Uni on the subject, otherwise it's not something that is taught here in the current curiculem. No offense intended on this point im going to make next, but when a country loses a war, it isn't really going to be at the front of the education system is it? I don't know this for sure, but I doubt that Vietnam and Somalia are core subjects in the US history department? I think (unfortunatly) most English people tend to forget we were ever involved in the war. 4th of July celebrations certainly have no impact here. In fact to be honest, the first time I realised that they were important to you guy's was when I was on holiday and was in Washington for the 4th July when I was 15.
Vietnam is studied here a fair amount, although much of it has to do with the political and social significance of it. But it pales in comparison to the study of the Civil War, the Revolution, and the two World Wars. EDIT: By "here" I mean the U.S., not Taiwan. Sometimes I forget that I'm out of the home country at present.
The two World Wars are core subjects as is the sudy of Nazi Germany from 1933. Vietnam is covered in detail at GCSE level. It focuses on impact it had in stability in ASIA. Impact on the actual people of Vietnam e.t.c. Most of the US modules possible focus on the Cold War and the American influence on the Arab-Israeli conflict rather than anything actually inside America. We in Europe love to focus on America's foreign policy!!!
Vietnam probably has more written about it in the US than any war except for WWII and the Civil War. WWI is usually ignored. So yes, the US does study it quite a bit. As for Somalia.......um.........the US lost a war in Somalia? When? Where was I? Gives you something to do - what are you going to do, study the recent "effects" of British foreign policy? What effects? If by English you meant German, then yes. The worst Russian accent EVER. Those few minutes at the beginning where he's speaking in Russian are a cool idea, but its the worst pronounciation I've ever heard. Seriously. Well, the worst since the BBC commentators decided Vicente was Italian, and kept calling him "Vichente". On a serious note, I don't think this is true. I think a bigger culprit is the anti-intellectual tendency in the states, that make many heroes "everymen", and villians refined yet soulless/amoral rich bastards. Since Americans associate refinement with being British, that's where you get your villain syndrome from, I would guess. Think about it - if you just wanted a movie to sound more "high-brow", you'd just do it with English accents. Yeah, but most of those unresolved issues were US issues. The hawks in Congress, like Henry Clay, figured 1812 would be a pretty good year to kick the crap out of England, it being involved with the continental blockade (hah!) and whatnot. Impressing American sailors into the British fleets was nice camoflauge though.
Nope - he was German. Um, phishy - that wasn't a war. I guess in the US we like to define "war" as a bit more than a few search and destroy black helicopter missions
Ok I wrote war as a generalisation for conflict/US foreign involvenment. But I don't know why I'm saying that, as you know this full well. Either you've lost your intelligent side in the 5 weeks ive been in Africa or you've got Black Hawk Down on repeat on the DVD player? It's funny isn't it how positive effects of certain policy get lost when anothers policy is so negativley central to world politics at present? No, he meant English. Actually I'll be as pedantic as you. Jonathan Pryce who played the 'baddie' Elliot Carver, was born in Holyhead, Wales, UK. The majority of his work being solely for the UK television market. How you got German from that, god only knows. Chelsea supporters is my only answer..... But of course the English accents in all of Hollywood are supurb arn't they? It may of been a bad accent, but at least he tried. Geez, the first sensible thing you've said!!
The actor, as Rick has said is definitely British. Was he putting on a German accent? My mind must be going.
No, No. Your mind isn't going. Although Nice has obviously gone as he won't be proved wrong, Pryce played Elliot Carver. An Englishman.
Come on. Somalia wasn't a war. And there's really no reason for it to be taught in schools. How much is the British/US intervention that removed Mossadeq in 54 taught in British schools? Pssst - that was a joke. Pedantic? Moi? Never! At any rate, I could have sworn he was playing a German in that movie. I'll check. I know the actor is British, of course. Maybe I'm going senile at my relatively young age........ No - I was merely suggesting that DESPITE BEING A GOOD IDEA that was the worst Russian I've ever heard spoken aloud. It doesn't make Connery a bad person. Just means his Russian sounded quite awful. Despite being a Chelsea fan?
Nope - I think its my mind. For whatever reason, I thought he was German. I checked, and there seems to be no reference to it. So I suppose its only a matter of time till I have the mental faculties of Charlton Heston. At any rate - mea culpa on that one.
Ok, and how much did you know until June 2000 when it was published in the New York Times? The various coups, ARE tought as part of the Arab-Israeli conflict and US interventions in the middle East in the GCSE syllabus. Not in gret detail, but then you'll appreciate factual events only being covered by a few lines. You have Hollywood............ (Pearl Harbour before you throw it back at me!!) Oh, ok. Wish Bush's 6 'terrorist states' had been a joke as well!!!! See what I mean Michael, he can't admit he's wrong!! Ok, watch any Hollywood movie that features another country and tell me every accent is natural. I mean come on, Arnie's Austrian for god's sake, not the most convincing American accent!! Well I've got to find sympathy for you somewhere.......
Um, OK........if you're going to referene the Arab Israeli conflict, I'm going to walk away very slowly. Not a discussion I want to have on the Arsenal board. Neither do you, I might add. It might lure Silvio Dante, and you'd have both him and ZANI. You'll never have a day of peace around here again. I had thought it was the axis of evil? See above. Sigh. Don't care about Ahnold. That wasn't the point. However, I've seen plenty of Western movies involving Russia, and have heard plenty of Russian spoken by non-Russians. Connery in Hunt for Red October makes the Nicole Kidman of "Birthday Girl" sound like Raisa Gorbachev.
True. But what I'm talking about was even earlier. Even as late as 1812 there was still a significant amount of American resentment regarding Jay's Treaty in which the English made virtually no concessions. Jay failed to get any guaranteed protection of American sailors from British seizure, no open ports for American trade except in the West Indies...and even there only to ships of less than 70 tons. The only real concession made by the British was to remove the rest of their troops from forts in the northwest territory. All the Republicans (led by T.J.) hated it, as did many Federalists. Washington and Adams, however, pushed it through because it guaranteed peace for the time being. Still, resentment remained...and yeah, maybe most of those hangpups were American issues but the British didn't help things.
That's true. One of my economics professors (also with a PhD in history) long made the case that the REAL objective of the Revolutionary War was to get at the lands to the West, which the British had forbidden to the colonists, while forcing them to pay for the army that kept them from those lands. Supposedly that was one of the chief aims in the post-revolution negotiation. I've never conclusively bought it, but he made a good case. Point being, that perhaps the things above weren't quite so crucial to the Americans, but they certainly seized their chance when England had bigger problems. I don't really think the British cared all that much, since their navy had never been bigger, and they knew that after Trafalgar they could use it with impunity. Which resulted in the White House being set on fire. Of course, it couldn't help them on land (even after the war was technically over)