Complaint about Arsenal forum moderator Rick B

Discussion in 'Customer Service' started by johan neeskens, Aug 23, 2006.

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  1. nicephoras

    nicephoras A very stable genius

    Fucklechester Rangers
    Jul 22, 2001
    Eastern Seaboard
    First, Rick didn't ask me to do anything. And second, it doesn't matter if you know or don't know he's my friend. You complained about a friend and a fellow moderator who was completely within his rights. So I'd be a dick if I didn't back him up.

    Because you're complaining about people I know and like here. And a fellow moderator. This isn't annoying - its an attack.
    If everyone else says you reek, it might be time to consider some deodorant.
     
  2. dark knight

    dark knight Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Dec 15, 1999
    Club:
    New York City FC
    Now that you mention it, Chelsea is one of the forums we get the most complaints about intolerance of outsiders. Thanks for reminding me nicephoras. Now kindly stay out of this thread since it isn't about you.
     
  3. nicephoras

    nicephoras A very stable genius

    Fucklechester Rangers
    Jul 22, 2001
    Eastern Seaboard
    Happy to do so. We are hostile to trolls, I'll readily admit that.
    But is there something you'd like to say to me about the moderation in the Chelsea forum? Not sure what this thread has to do with it.

    So I'm not allowed to comment if this isn't about me? I guess I learn new things about BS all the time.
     
  4. Miles Brasher

    Miles Brasher Member

    Sep 6, 2004
    Coventry,England

    BS stands for BigSoccer, yeah?

    To be honest, if this thread isn't allowed to follow the normal mutation and meander off on to slightly different subjects then it's purely between Johan, Rick and the Dark Knight (surely that name demands a crack of thunder after it?) and I think all three of them have said everything they need to say. (Although I've never met Rick, I suspect he's starting to hit the keyboard a little harder with each post :) ) So why not close it ?
     
  5. dark knight

    dark knight Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Dec 15, 1999
    Club:
    New York City FC
    The point is - folks should feel welcome to come here and register complaints without a bunch of mod friends following them here to pile on and continue to bicker back and forth. The fact is, there is some validity to the complaint, and you guys are making that abundantly clear by your behavior here. In addition, nicephoras' comment about "he's my friend and your complaint is idiotic", is - in a nutshell - the kind of cliquish attitude that we are talking about, and it's disappointing coming from a mod. Mod's aren't here to join foces and gang up on folks they think are idiotic.

    Maybe we should turn off mod's access to this forum so folks can feel comfortable to complain here.
     
  6. Rick B

    Rick B Member

    Aug 26, 2003
    Harare, Zimbabwe
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Zimbabwe
    I agree clique doesn't help. But there is a big difference in my opinion between that and this issue. Johan managed to annoy more than me on the Arsenal board. You can see that quite clearly in the thread. Therefore those people want to say their piece in defense of the Arsenal forum posters not neccesarily me which Johan has attacked as well. Both sides of the story should be allowed to be heard and as we have quite obviously seen from Johan's posts in the origional thread and this thread - she has absolutly no answer to our/my allegations of why I asked her to leave the thread.

    I still think this thread should be closed, every time I open My Bigsoccer it comes up with a new post - can we put it to bed yet?!!!
     
  7. dark knight

    dark knight Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Dec 15, 1999
    Club:
    New York City FC
    Again, just because Johan annoyed y'all doesn't negate the fact that some of y'all, including you, could have handled the situation better. Your need to be persistent in this thread is helping to keep it going, when the poster has already expressed she doesn't plan on posting in your forum again. A more charming course of action would be to find a way to encourage her to change her mind and give it another chance. But alas, if she were to post I wouldn't be surprised if some of those posters that posted personal attacks -- you know, the ones I don't believe you cautioned -- wouldn't jump on her again.
     
  8. BPBlueSox

    BPBlueSox Member

    Ajax
    Netherlands
    Aug 21, 2003
    Georgia
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Bingo.
     
  9. Rick B

    Rick B Member

    Aug 26, 2003
    Harare, Zimbabwe
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Zimbabwe
    I handled it by warning her three times before threatening with a card. I didn't PM her as I explained the thread was moving so fast I took the view she would see the posts before a PM. I should of PM'd her - but I am under the impression my reasons in asking her to stop are correct, plus warning her three times before threatening a card (which is generally two warnings before giving one) wasn't really all that harsh.

    Ive also said in this thread I am more than happy for her to post as long as she looks at responses and takes them into account when replying instead of repeating herself constantly.

    With regards to warnings I warned the one poster that she complained (in here, not to me direct or by report) about personally attacking her. If I should get a card fro him I will do. See you in another thread in 2 mins.....;) :)

    Lastly.......charming goes both ways.........This is the 3rd time in 3 years Ive had someone unhappy at how Ive handled them. The 2nd time posted in this thread and ran off when I put some facts to him. The first time was Bill Archer who I subsequently apologised to as I took out on him direct revenge for a kitty killer thread (Freddy Adu) in the Arsenal forum which destroyed every thread for about ten hours.
     
  10. dark knight

    dark knight Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Dec 15, 1999
    Club:
    New York City FC
    Rick - for someone who doesn't like repetitive posting, you sure don't mind saying the same things again! :)

    Let me lay out for you how I would hope you would respond to this to save us both time: "Regardless of the circumstances of this incident, my takeaway is we can be a little more tolerant of dissenting points of view and try to be a little less quick in going into troll/enemy of forum mode. It's unfortunate if some decent guest posters feel very unwelcome to share their views. By not asking my posters to calm down occasionally, perhaps I'm indirectly encouraging a sort of siege mentality that isn't conducive to some back and forth banter that can be a healthy part of sports fandom. We'll try to find ways of working on this."

    If your response is yet again how you did in fact do this and you don't have any problem or anything to work on or whatever, kindly keep such to yourself.
     
  11. Rick B

    Rick B Member

    Aug 26, 2003
    Harare, Zimbabwe
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Zimbabwe
    :D Finally you got the irony I was trying to show!!! I'm shutting up now - and PLEASE shut this thread!!
     
  12. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    Who said Americans don't do irony?
     
  13. nicephoras

    nicephoras A very stable genius

    Fucklechester Rangers
    Jul 22, 2001
    Eastern Seaboard
    Right, so this has what to do with the moderation of the Chelsea forum? If we're going to talk about "sniping" and the like?

    :rolleyes: Wow, talk about selective and creative editing. I wouldn't defend Rick if he was in the wrong. There are people on here I like who're moderators with whom I've disagreed. As you know, in fact.
    johan raised the question of why I bothered - its because Rick is a good mod and the complaint was unwarranted. And because we're friends. I didn't decide to post here because "oh, Rick is my friend and johan is mean". I hadn't realized I'm no longer allowed to offer my opinion on a subject.
    johan routinely pisses people off with her posting style on every forum I've ever seen her post. Oh, should I not have said that?

    Or you could ask us not to comment, which would have been easier. Or have moderators dragged through the mud because totallyemo decides his trolling should be allowed.

    Close this abortion and have done with it. Otherwise I'm sure Zuras will be back to complain.
     
  14. dark knight

    dark knight Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Dec 15, 1999
    Club:
    New York City FC
    We are talking about ill treatment of guests of the forum and Chelsea is a forum that often gets mentioned as one of the top of the list in this. As I mentioned to Miles Brasher, if you feel the need to chime in and belabor a point that was already made and/or otherwise impose yourself on this conversation, don't be surprised if your house isn't completely in order that you face some scrutiny.




    Let he who doesn't piss off folks regularly cast the first stone.


    I'm pretty sure I did ask you not to comment further.

    I think most mods can handle it. On an unrelated matter, I'm going to be sending you a PM shortly.
     
  15. antifan

    antifan Member+

    Aug 14, 2004
    The Scottie
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Dark Knight- Let me get this straight, you're discouraging Mods and Arsenal fans from posting in this thread in the interests of furthering free speech. And you're obviously annoyed when they respond to posts that are clearly aimed at them. I don't see how the irony of your position is utterly lost on you. Maybe you should take your own (and everyone else's) advice and just close this thread before you have to resort to threatening people with cards. And please don't respond to this post, thanks. ;)
     
  16. dark knight

    dark knight Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Dec 15, 1999
    Club:
    New York City FC
    Sorry - at what point did I say free speech? I said, people should be able to make a complaint here without a bunch of folks piling on. See - you guys have been so coddled by your mods that you can't handle any dissenting voices and become desperate for thread closure when your group attack tactics won't fly. (insert smiley face)
     
  17. Rick B

    Rick B Member

    Aug 26, 2003
    Harare, Zimbabwe
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Zimbabwe
    I don't coddle anyone!!! I stick up for Arsenal posters as you know and they, generally, stick up for me as they like the way I moderate the Arsenal forum.

    Anyway, Im off - this thread isn't going anywhere if your not going to let Nicephoras post here.........;) :p
     
  18. Cannon

    Cannon Member

    Arsenal
    United States
    Sep 2, 2001
    Washington, DC metro
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So let me get this straight. Johan can complain here (without first going through any of the steps suggested in the guidance from Huss btw) and none of the people that had to deal with her annoying posts that were either trolling (Rick and many Arsenal board regulars' view) or as close to trolling as one can get without quite crossing that hazy line (my view) are allowed to make comments here? :confused:

    Weird way to run the site. So if one of our members wants to complain about johan posts here I assume you'll be sure to restrict the conversation so that nobody that agrees with her can comment, right? ;) I think members of the Arsenal board all have an interest in the outcome of any complaint made against what they obviously view as proper behavior by one of their board's mods. Telling them to mind their own business is unlikely to improve the situation.

    People were calling for this thread to be closed because there seems to be no advantage to going over and over this incident. Nothing Johan says will change how her posts were seen by the vast majority of people on that thread. Sure it would have been better for people not to respond to the "troll" but I'm not sure what rehashing it over and over again will serve. However, if you would like to keep this topic going, could you please explain how your current stance compares to what you first said in this thread?
    Do you now think that her behavior can't possibly be reasonably considered trolling? Are you now saying that the community guidelines that allow board mods to determine where the line between just poor, impolite behavior and trolling on "a forum by forum basis" should not apply here? As your final paragraph acknowledged, Rick felt a need to get invovled because of the character of Johan's posts (a pattern which you admit can be seen as trolling) and the (negative) reaction they generated from nearly every other person on the thread. It probably escalated too quickly and too far but I think you'll find the all parties made that mistake and would probably handle it differently next time.

    I'd also suggest that if you have a problem with the way the Arsenal mods run our board you might want to address those concerns to the mods in private before making silly statements here about "coddled" members being unable to handle dissenting voices and group attacks. Isn't that the way you normally would bring up such concerns? I'll be happy to point you to thread after thread full of dissenting voices (both within the club and beyond including a fair amount of activity from Chelsea, ManU, and even Spurs fans) that did not follow the pattern seen after Johan's inflammatory repetitive posts. I think you also realize that tolerance levels for trolling (and posts either side of that hazy line) varies signifcantly across Bigsoccer. You'll find our board's overall treatment of "guests" falls well within the norms seen across BigSoccer especially for a very active board. If you'd like to improve the standard of behavior across the site (not a bad goal), I'd apreciate it if you addressed your comments in a way to make it clear you aren't targeting the Arsenal board which was the impression I got from your recent posts here. Thanks.
     
  19. dark knight

    dark knight Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Dec 15, 1999
    Club:
    New York City FC
    Again, I just don't see the need for a lot of posters to pile on. Do you think it's useful to have folks come here and insult each other or try to shout back and forth?

    Weird way to run the site? This isn't a policy - it was said for this thread because there wasn't a lot of point in two sides having a go at each other (and at least it had the effect of them arguing with me instead). I'm sure they do have an interest in defending Rick but I also think Rick is entirely capable of speaking in his defense. Comments in defense of Rick as a good mod which are calm and respectful seem appropriate to me.


    I haven't changed my stance and, again, I really liked what you said in your first post in this thread which is why I quoted it. I also really liked how you attempted to respond to the poster in the original thread, calmly and rationally. (This is an honest compliment.)

    If you think that everyone does feel that it escalated too quickly and would handle it differently then I would be more inclined to shut this down. I guess I may have missed that - but my impression is that most folks - probably on both sides - feel like they did nothing wrong which is why I haven't shut it down immediately. I also think it doesn't hurt to debate some of these issues because it comes up a lot.

    Rick took the comment in the spirit which it was intended. And I think he knows that I'm being blunt because I know he can handle it. Sometimes we mods do handle things more harshly than necessary - myself included - because we often deal with a lot of trolls, etc. As a veteran, he probably gets more leeway on that factor.


    For the record, I'm not saying this is a problem for Arsenal specifically, but that all boards should try to strive for a little more tolerance - and rely on mods to do their jobs rather than using personal attacks to deal with perceived trolls.
     
  20. dark knight

    dark knight Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Dec 15, 1999
    Club:
    New York City FC
    Oops - I just read again and I'm not sure if Rick realized the coddled line was a joke. It wasn't serious.
     
  21. Rick B

    Rick B Member

    Aug 26, 2003
    Harare, Zimbabwe
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Zimbabwe
    Don't worry I did. I know you well enough by now. Hence I added the "not letting Nicephoras post" bit. I think you know by now my sarcastic humour........
     
  22. dark knight

    dark knight Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Dec 15, 1999
    Club:
    New York City FC
    Okay - good - that was how I read your comment the first time. :)
     
  23. Ismitje

    Ismitje Super Moderator

    Dec 30, 2000
    The Palouse
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I still think the complaint at the heart of this thread should be about Rick B's avatar with that oddly giant head and eerily blinking eyes.
     
  24. Rick B

    Rick B Member

    Aug 26, 2003
    Harare, Zimbabwe
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Zimbabwe
    But I just found this Mr Knight!!!

    Thread Complaining about Dark Knight!! which you closed.........;)

    How come you can do that eh, eh, eh?

    Now re your long post, I'll quickly "Nicephoras" it (thats the term we use in the Premiership forums for picking it to bits and making lots of little posts which clog up forums......!!!!! )

    Agreed, but you know as well as I do that if certain people are perceived to be "attacked" they will get people backig them up.

    Secondly and more importantly, what Cannon has said is quite correct - Johan complained about not just me. Therefore those people who came on the thread have just as much right to complain about her antics on the Arsenal forum. Surely it's better for them to complain in a thread directly dealing with the issue rather than start another thread altogether?

    As you, and probably most people know, I am more than capable of arguing in my defense. In my opinion they were mentioning me, but more arguing in defense of themselves who had been criticised by Johan and in defense of the Arsenal forum in general. A forum that has been taken from a small one to being the 2nd biggest Club forum and the 5th biggest forum in total on the whole site. It's like telling Madonna she did something wrong.......;)

    Also remember you insinuated I had asked people to speak in my defense. Now I know fully well that had I put a simple thread on the Arsenal forum like "I'm being unfairly criticised as a Mod" - you'd of had a fair few comments in defense of me being a good mod. But then in all honesty I don't think you distrust me as Mod anyway considering our past conversations over the years.

    I have said the way I could of handled it differently would of been to PM Johan rather than put it in posts on the threads. You have said on page 1 in post 13 here that I had a fair point that I had asked her to stop 3 times before threatening any punishment. I therefore don't believe I escalated it too quickly and thought you were in agreement with this? In that post as well you suggested I should shut down the thread. I decided against that as I wanted to see if the discussion could be turned into a proper debate between the two players attributes.

    Hindsight is a wonderful thing!! :D

    I did take it in that spirit and can handle it.
    As you know, the Arsenal forum is a big forum - we get a lot of trolls, therefore it's more important to me to make sure that my very high numbers of regular posters are happy rather than one poster who (and Ive tried my best to refrain from saying this, but as others have - I'll be a little less diplomatic) is well known accross BigSoccer for being a pain in the arse, who often trolls, who goes out of her way to annoy Mods because she (openly addmitedly) doesn't agree with authority, and who manages to get away with a heck of a lot more than most trolls because she has a lot of friends who will stick up for her.

    I can assure you that this isn't a problem on the Arsenal board. Have a look at new signups and where they post their first post. I think you will find a high proportion of them are Arsenal. This is from something we have done at Arsenal America where we encourage all our members to sign up to BigSoccer and everyone who gets a ticket through me (which as you know I run from the Arsenal board) has to become a Bigsoccer member. We even have links to the first 5 threads on the Arsenal forum in the Arsenal America homepage so therefore there is absolutly no way we are going to be too harsh on newbies or guests. All of the mods are members of Arsenal America as well. 3 out of the 4 including me are Board members. The only thing we are harsh on is if people piss off and annoy the forum. This being a prime example.
     
  25. Rick B

    Rick B Member

    Aug 26, 2003
    Harare, Zimbabwe
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Zimbabwe
    :D The really funny thing is I had the smaller version until the avatar images could be enlarged a year or so ago and Riz (Chelsea Mod) made the image bigger and made the eyes blink quicker......!!!!! It still freaks some people out :)
     

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