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Discussion in 'The Netherlands' started by Antario2, Sep 11, 2016.
Nor is Wouter Bos much of an economist
Wrong, he's one of the best economists of this country. He gave up a glittering career as a high potential at Shell with a paycheck in the millions in the future to serve an undeserving population for a meagre hand out and still people like the PVV imbecils call him a "zakkenvuller".
Get of your high horse please. The man may or may not have been a good administrator but that doesn't mean he is a renowned economist unlike say Bas Jacobs.
Bas Jacobs, the VVV player?
Bas Jacobs van Pfaff
Bas Jacobs van Pfaff is meer dan eens in 3VOOR12’s Dubbel Check aan de tand gevoeld. Vorige week ontving de redactie een persbericht van Pfaff dat na een intense periode van overpeinzingen van ongeveer één minuut de band nieuw leven is ingeblazen: eind 2005 verlieten twee leden de band, nu is Jacobs samen met Alice, ex-toetseniste van The Riplets.
Just kidding. No, Wouter isnot an administrator, he is a highly regarded economist, now working for KPMG.
Bas Jacobs is just a scientist, spending his time thinking, but not practicing. Also in a field of economicsI donot think of highly, to be honest. To make a comparison, he's called the best in NL by colleagues, but by colleagues practicing the same Economic sport. But he's a Wijnaldum in the EPL of economics.
"Uit het bedrijfsleven afkomstige partijleider van de PvdA in de jaren 2002-2010. Werkte na een studie economie en politicologie ruim negen jaar in binnen- en buitenland voor Shell."
You donot get there being a mini.
You were saying about PVV-mentality?
There's a difference with my statement: when people call someone a "zakkenvuller", while he received a hand out of 180,000 euros and even less when he sat in the parlement, while having given up a salary of about a million. So a "zakkenvuller"is someone who in 10 years in gouvernment gave up at least 9 million in income to serve the country. That's the "PVV mentality", whining without facts.
When I critisize Bas Jacobs, I see a branch of economics responsible for the shit we see coming from the ECB, the FED etc. that results in pensions to be curbed etc.
That's the difference. One might disagree with my opinion, but it is an opinion shared by other economists all over the world, while the PVV mentality is just whining.
You want higher interest rates?
They are artificially kept down and what happens with the enormous pile of junk the Central Banks have stashed now is something no one kows, because the idiocy of the last 15 years starting with the idiot of Greenspan, is terrifying to even think about. The worse thing of this maniacal printing money and giving it for free to corrupt banks, is that it doesnot produce what it is intended to do, but hey ...it doesnot work, let's give it an extra bang.
And the ones who are going to pay the bill are the common people.
Monetary policy can't replace Fiscal policy. Ultimately whether you run a country, a club or a household you have to see the fault lines n bring long term reforms to slash costs or increase earnings or build talent or whatever your objectives conservative or progressive.
The idea of artificially depressed rates has created a lot of problem. The return on savings & interest is terrible & people especially old people have to create more savings to get similar return. It also disproportionately supports the very rich. For ex - With so much free money, CEO's of large corporations re-purchase shares to create a demand-supply position of shares to their liking which increases equity prices. CEO n Top Management compensation is directly linked to Company's Share price value.
These policies are strengthening the top layer a lot more than the bottom n median layer. Plus we are not addressing the main problems. This could lead to a decade similar to Japan's decade of lost growth. What happens after you hit 0%? What do you do if growth doesn't pick up?
On the long term & middle term through incremental changes (not sudden or radical), the world has to move away from these kind of policies. One example would be to work on Climate Change which would bring tremendous economic savings or in working against global tax havens. Look at Apple n almost Corporate entities are finding ways to evade taxes. What happens if they don't? Either you gets cuts in essential schemes or that tax burdens shifts to the common man.
People have to grapple with realistic solutions, if there are problems address it - The current interest rates are like applying a lot of make-up after you are hit by your abusive boyfriend, that can't go on forever & is not a long term solution!
We will see how this one goes. Any profanity or name calling and it gets shut down. I had a comment about the economics discussion on the Cruyff tribute thread being moved. I agree that it's not relevant to the greatest Dutch football player of all time. I'm moving the economics posts over here (I hope this works) and we can continue to discuss this and other contemporary issues. Just behave yourselves!!!!
But in the US, the Republican party doesn't want a fiscal policy that would increase infrastructure spending. We have bridges and roads that really need fixing and this would create lots of jobs. Our Congress just doesn't want to act. It might be different if we had a parliamentary system and Obama could just turn on the cash machine.
There is nothing that says interest rates have to be X%. People have to plan carefully for retirement and can't rely on fixed income investments alone. I agree on the share buyback issue and for all the companies I have investments in I routinely vote against compensation plans that are based on that.
Problem in Europe is that you have the Germans driving the economic policy train.
You opened this 10 days too soon. The 40 days desert retreat hasnot finished yet
Don't talk to me about desert retreats!!! We are finally seeing some cooler weather here in my neighborhood. I think we either have or will set a record for the most days where the temperature goes above 90F (32C). It's just been awful and our electric bill for air conditioning is really high.
That's correct. Interest rates react on inflation. But what the politicians/Central Bank loonies are doing now is to turn it the other way around. They want a certain level of inflation ( I call it the politicians social corrupting rate), because it decreases in the long run the debt they create by not being sensible. But the level of inflation is close to zero. So they cranck down the rate even under nill, with the result that the culprits for the financial disasters, the banks, getting free money, while the enormous risks to the world are with the gouverments, but via them to the taxpayers= the common people. The CB's create that tsunami of money to stirr up spending and thus inflation. But it doesnot work, the banks are having a party with it, so what do the idiots, create even more money. When you have your car in the mud and you see that giving gass ploughs you deeper. Is the first reaction you have...oh hitting the gas pedal didnot work, I kick it even further?
That's my problem with the likes of Bas Jacobs, for decades (since I started thinking about finance and economics as a kid of 12) they have been the theoretical supporters of an in essence morally corrupt way of thinking.
Is it okay if I would call Greenspan an idiot?
You havenot installed solar panels yet? When the economy falls apart you still have energy
You criticized one of the countries top researchers on public finance while unable to distinguish between policies made by institutions and governments and the field of study that investigates the mechanics. That is not exactly an informed opinion.
That is permitted! He has to be one of the worst central bankers in history.
I have not done this as I'm unsure how much longer we will be living in our house. A number of neighbors have done so. Our electric bill isn't all that high on average, just during July, August, and part of September. My understanding is that when the power goes out (which it does sometimes during severe storms) the solar panels are of no use as they are directly tied into the power line system; they don't provide stand alone power.
To mention just one point about the quality of the Bas Jacobs writings:
He starts with:
Alle beschikbare data wijzen op grote permanente schade van de
Grote Recessie en een aanzienlijk risico op langdurige stagnatie."
He means with his colleagues with the "Grote Recessie" the Credit crisis around 2008. The bloody nerve to make it sound like the "Great Depression". He was born in 1973, but that doesnot excuse this kind of bloating of a financial crisis to real disasters from the past.
He starts with the ominous word "permanente" (=lasting) damage of the 2008 crisis.
The years leading to World War II and the destruction that followed left about half the world in ruins, literally.
Are we still suffering lasting damage of it, that we have to look into bins to scrape something to eat out of it? No. We suffered years of rebuilt and little room to spend, but hard work lifted us out of that world of debris. And here comes a guy who is hardly dry behind his ears and starts with his mates farting about lasting damage of a crisis, that made no one eat less, let alone starve. This kind of farting with little recourse to real crises and what people did with it is the reason why I puke on this branch of economics and its practicers.
No, he's one of the advisors of the institutions too.
Wouter Bos was also part of those institutions/governments, but since he left a private firm to do so, he apparently gets a free pass.
Wouter Bos plied the economic knowledge in a very competitive environment, so to say he practiced economics in one of the top 3 biggest companies in the world.
Bas, on the other hand only knows things from the theory books. He never has had a job in which it was asked from him to really implement the economic theories in a competitive environment on a global scale.
But I guess you think I should critisize Wouter for having been part of the system. In that respect you are right.
But the start of the discussion was who I valued as an economist.
And that is exactly why Bos is not an economist but a manager (and now a consultant) and therefore cannot be compared with the top scientists in the field (aka economists).
I really dislike this practical experience drivel always pop up when discussing economics. Nobody asks medical researchers if they've worked as a GP. Heck, most aerospace engineers can't fly a plane.
I donot know any medical researcher without hands on practice. The Feyenoord club arts is a top researcher of a very nasty cancer form and besides his Feyenoord activity also is a practicing med in his research field.
You cannot become a researcher in the medical sciences without being a practicionar in that field. I'm sure about that.
But I can see your point. But the problem is exactly that economics has drifted away from what it really is, a practical science, into a realm of philosophical/political blah blah. And I count Bas etc. in that category, but 'm okay with it that you disagree.
The Pope may have read many books on how to have sex properly and based on that may have written about it too. I doubt you will take any advice seriously he gives about how to do it.
It's the exact opposite, economics has long since moved away from it's philosophical origins to a practical social science utilizing the scientific method.
The big problem with economics is that politicians only want to validate their existing views/ideals with (parts of) economic theory, but not use modern economic insights to update their views. Hence the constant return of failed policies.