Right now I'm a junior in high school, and I just wanted advice on a particular situation: First of all, I should say that I pretty much have my heart set on a particular school, St. John's College. I've already visited there and everything, and absolutely loved it. And their admission process is very loose. For the fall semester, their deadline falls at the beginning of March (yes, I realize this is more than a year in advance, but I like planning ahead), but because of the nature of the curriculum, they typically cap their class whenever they hit a certain amount of students, so its best to apply early (like sometime in the fall). Also, since their financial aid is done on a first-come, first-serve basis, I have a better shot at getting more money if I apply early. And I'll definitely need all the financial aid I can get, since it runs at about 40k. So this is my question, and I have differing views on it from my parents: My feeling is that, I should apply early, but to St. John's only. Since there is no admission fee, and I would only have to get one transcript from the counselor, it'll be a completely pain-free admissions process, and I'll basically have everything such as financial aid ironed out by my 2nd semester of high school. If I don't get in, I'll still have plenty of time to apply to my secondary schools (which I have a good idea of), and get everything worked out, although it would be more costly and time-consuming. My parents think that I should apply to my secondary schools at the same time that I send in my application for St. John's, simply in the case that I decide to change my mind. But I really don't want to go through the trouble of writing essays, getting reccomendations, and filling out applications to schools that I probably wouldn't go to. I only want to do that as a last resort. Now obviously I might be undecided on where to go by next fall, but right now, I don't see why my thinking is off, since it could potentially save alot of unwanted stress and time working on applications.
Go to that extra trouble. Do your best, but don't stress - what pressure is there on you, since you're pretty sure you've got the whole thing worked out? But your parents are right. Tell them the professors you chat with on line agreed with them! This isn't to say that St. John's College isn't the right choice. But I have the following similar conversation every year: Applicant: State U only awarded me $5,000 per year for financial aid. Private U. awarded me $25,000. I am going to have to pick Private U if you can't do better. Advisor: What are the total costs of State U and Private U per year? Applicant: State U. is $8,000, Private U. is $40,000. Advisor: So, the out-of-pocket cost is $3,000 at State and $15,000 at Private? Now, obviously price isn't the only consideration. But, you'll need that second offer to make an effective comparison. I always recommend a cost-benefit analysis, among other factors: is the additional $48,000 for a four year degree at Private U. worth it to the long-term financial viability of your parents? Does the alumni network of Private U translate into better jobs? Can an Honors College or other entity at State provide you with the class size and other advantages at Private U? Essentially, you need other offers to make the comparison. Good luck making your decision. P.S. from your user name and location - are you a cross country runner in San Antonio? My niece lettered in CC in SA this year.
Thanks. Of course, I failed to mention that most of my secondary schools are also private liberal arts colleges that charge exorbitant fees But I know that I'm probably going to have to take out some student loans to cover the expenses, and I'd rather deal with that and get the education I want. That is correct. What school does she go to?
I will give you myself as an example: By my junior-beginning of senior year of high school, I was sure I wanted to go to a big-name university in a medium-big city. I applied to these sort of schools (Duke, Vanderbilt, U of Chicago, Northwestern, Tufts) only to figure out by the time I got my admissions decisions that I didn't want to go to any of them. I ended up having to go to a cheap, big state university near my house for a year before transferring to my current school (which I love by the way). I love where I am at right now, but if I would have been smarter with the whole process I could have saved myself alot of trouble going through the college admissions process twice and I could have been a part of my freshman class at my current school. To sum up my advice, you may think you know what you want right now, but you may not. Apply not just to more than one school, but to different types of schools to give you options when it is time to make what to this point is probably the biggest decision of your life.
Keep your options open. I visited Dartmouth at the beginning of my junior year, and if they'd offered admission then, I would have taken it without hesitation, even though it was the first place I visited. Later, though, as I visited more schools, I realized that what appealed so much to me was the whole college atmosphere, not just Dartmouth in particular. So I looked around at some more places and ended up not even applying to Dartmouth. Now I'm extremely happy where I am and I'm really glad I didn't just stop visiting places and I'm also glad I didn't apply ED anywhere. I'd recommend at least visiting/looking at a few other places before you start thinking about applying ED anywhere.
That's great advice from blackjack about falling in love with the "college experience" versus falling in love with a particular college. I'm assuming from reading some of your other posts that one of the things attracting you to St. John's is the great books curriculum. It would be worth visiting other schools that do something similar in a different format (The college that I teach has a First Year seminar that covers many of those texts, Columbia does it over two years) in order to figure out what the pluses and minuses of that curriculum are. Personally, I think having such a seminar all four years would somewhat constrain students' development toward particular disciplinary interests, but that's something you'll obviously know better for yourself. The other reason to apply to multiple schools is to be able to get multiple financial aid offers, and to see if schools are willing to match them. This could substantially lower the cost of your education, and many of the type of schools you are applying to offer some pretty generous scholarships. Finally, the application process is not that much work. IMO, people exaggerate the work involved, in part, because the stress that gets loaded onto the process makes it seem worse than it is.
Keep one thing in mind - many, many, MANY motivated college kids end up going further in their education. So keep that in mind when applying for undergrad. I got in everywhere I applied after high school, and was stuck between U of Chicago and OSU Honors. I didn't really want to go to OSU Honors, but the education was excellent, and I got out in three years. I then went to a good law school which is fvcking expensive. I ended up with a decent amount of debts, but had a few friends who're almost at 200K after Ivy undergrad degrees. That's a vast sum of money, even taking consolidation into account. If your choice was Harvard or MIT, I'd tell you to go for it. But I definitely wouldn't sell my financial future down a dangerous river for St. Johns. Don't get me wrong, St. John's is a fine school. But is it really better than UT at Austin, where I'm assuming you'd be in-state?
This is at the heart of my post, as well. What will SJC get you that UT or even a fine out of state school won't?
I totally agree w/ the 'rents, here. If you're organized, it's not that difficult to manage. Sure, each app is complex. But for your letter writers, w/ computers, it's extremely easy to print and sign the letters. (I'm not familiar w/ letters of rec for undergrad admission, but I'd imagine that they're really user friendly for the letter writer.) This x-mas break/spring break/summer break, what you do is you write the skeleton of your statement of purpose. Then, you add/subtract (i.e. tailor) this statement to the different types of institutions: categories: 1. small liberal arts school "nestled in the hills of blahblahblah" w/ an emphasis on teaching 2. small liberal arts school "nestled ..." w/ an emphasis on research. (As an aside, I greatly prefer these to the former; I've got my suspicions of schools that don't really require their profs to publish.) 3. large state school, teaching 4. large state school, research (Univ. Texas, for instance) Each is going to have a different focus, but when you categorize them, it's easier to manage. If you really, really want to get into St. Johns, here's the ticket: Someone mentioned the Great Books sequence. This should be a significant part of your statement. Trust me: it'll distinguish you from all of the "I wanna go to St. Johns really, really badly. Go team!!" Did you meet a professor while you visited? Could you contact him/her and ask about the positives AND the negatives of this system? Incorporate the plusses in your statement. Ask your high school teachers, especially your letter writers, to peruse the requirements and ask them what the positives would be. The negatives: What suggestions do profs have that students could/should incorporate in their academic preparation? Now, the important part is how are you different from the norm? How are you prepared and how will you prepare to succeed in this unique program? But definitely apply to more than one school!!!!
Having taught at both a large state school, in the honors program (my experience was that the main difference btw honors and regular classes was that honors students were 10x more likely to complain about a B+, but that's neither here nor there) and a small liberal arts college, there is a difference. They're just totally different educational experiences and in class styles. I find myself teaching very differently in both settings, far more lecturing in the first, even in small classes; far more prompted inclass writing and analysis of book structure, types of evidence, more research projects (because I have the time to supervise 10 projects in a way I wouldn't have for 20) in the latter. This is both because of what I can do with smaller classes and because of what the students expect in the classroom. And people are absolutely correct that one should apply to both kinds of schools, weigh one against the other, decide which meets students' needs. And price is and should be a consideration. Another reason to apply multiple places is to weigh scholarship offers. I know at my institution, 70% of the students have some form of scholarship aid. FWIW, there's probably less difference between OSU honors and U of C than between OSU honors and Oberlin
I just read this passage to my wife, who is posting her grades for an honors class in about 5 minutes, and we put the over/under on the first B+ complaint at 12 minutes after they become available. I'm taking the under. Back to distrunner's question. I talked to a friend whose daughter just completed her first year at St. Johns in Annapolis, and she loves it. If you want an education that involves reading, arguing and writing, and which puts you in close contact with your professors (she's been to all of her professors' houses, and not as part of the class, but with two or three other students as dinner guests), well, that's a place for you. It's something that you are not likely to get at UT. You can get a lot of great things at UT, but probably not that.
Teaching honors led me to a new grading policy. No B+'s. If they were close to the A-, I'd give it to them. The vast majority however, were hovering delicately in the upper levels of the B. Giving them Bs made my life so much easier.
That's the impression I got. I sat in on a seminar over Lucretius' Nature of Things, and never before had I been so stimulated intellectually. It was just a completely different style of thinking that I loved. What are some of the main differences between the honors college at a state school and the regular student body? Is it the class size? And thanks for the advice everyone.
Thanks for the advice!! I'll pass that along!! I've never had to teach honors, only had students who make the class "honors" by doing extra work, but I know that I will some day.
My honors courses were full of hundreds of students (depending on the course), particularly in the first two years. The only thing they ever got me was more work.
Surprising they could find that many honors students at SLU. Nyah, nyah. Go to the school that is the best fit for you. You sound pretty with it for a high school junior so either your grades are pretty good or you can con your way past an admissions counselor. I applied to one school and that worked for me.
Sorry, to take this offtopic a bit (I do that alot in these NSR forums), but what are you all's opinions on Honor programs? I was in my honor program but havn't taken any classes, it just seems like a waste of time to me. What are your opinions?
See, I don't know if the honors programs at state schools would accept me. My grades probably aren't good enough (like an 89 GPA on a 100 point scale), to get into the honors programs. But I'm in almost all AP or H classes, so that might help. Of course, that's probably entirely my doing. I've had teachers telling my parents since first grade that I'd be a great student if "I just applied myself."
I went to a regional public university just before the state started cutting back support (I paid my way through working minimum wage jobs 20-25 hpw during classes, and I had a job that paid double minimum wage for 3-4 weeks of the summer, and that covered EVERYTHING... last time I checked, a student would have to work nearly 40 hours a week 52 weeks a year to cover tuition, room & board, books, and social expenses... and that would still require that the student jam econo in a major way... anyway) ... which means that I could take one class for honors each term (which as sarabella said, was basically more work, but it helped me get into a decent grad school from a non-descript college), as well as an honors seminar. The largest seminar was 11 people, the smallest was 3. Like I said, the bureaucrats would never let that happen today. the firist passive-aggressive "can you re-calculate my grade, I REALLY NEED an 'A' " Email showed up 15 minutes after the grades were available, so I lost. However, I do have someone objecting to a "B" in creative writing. I'm tempted to post some of his "poems" to bigsoccer just so he can see how strangers react to his "work."
I sent an Honors student to bigsoccer this semester for a project on the Portuguese in America - now there's a nationalistic group on BS for you! Re Honors - I have experience teaching in Honors programs and Honors colleges, and for me the distinction made all of the difference. In programs anyone who qualifies gets in, and so class sizes are large. But I've been with the Washington State University Honors College for five years now. They let in 150 students maximum per year, and all classes are small (I taught a "huge" class once of 26 students). It is as much fun as I can imaging having in a teaching setting. The college discourages lecturing overmuch, and the students expect challenging and interesting class periods and assignments. It is worth checking out here to see what an Honors College experience could be.
Ismitje's comments are very good regarding the distinctions between an honors program and honors college, although some programs are a hybrid. That's the case with the honors program at the College of Liberal Arts at Minnesota. You generally need to be in top 10 percent of your graduating class and SAT of 1260 (ACT-28) to get admitted. Not every class you take is an honors class, but only honors students may take honors classes (if that makes sense). Benefits: One benefit is that overall class sizes tend to be smaller. You also (theoretically at least) get to study with students who are as "serious" as you are. At U of M, I think the big benefit is that the CLA offers honors seminars each semester. The enrollment is capped at 20. While this isn't tiny, the courses are taught by the best faculty--that is, top CLA faculty who are also recognized for teaching ability--and they are set up like graduate seminars. The topics tend to be a bit trendy in my opinion, but there is a lot of discussion, interaction, common to be invited over to prof's house, etc. Other benefits: our honors program hosts speakers, miniconferences, lunches with administrators (I know, yippee!), etc. If you're an honors student, you can often declare your major (as opposed to having to apply to a major). Finally, I would guess that graduating from a honors program would look good on your resume and/or application to grad school.
I wasn't comparing the edudcational experience itself, but the quality of education. Yes, liberal arts schools are somewhat unique. I visited a few (and a good friend from high school went to Oberlin), and have never been a huge fan.
Wow, there's a lot of good advice in this thread. I'll try to supplement rather than repeat. But I do agree with the general consensus: you'll be doing yourself a favor if you apply to more than one school. You might even want to use the other schools' applications as tools for honing your application to St. Johns. Why? Fall-backs are good to have, even if you never need them. Besides, you never know why you might need a second choice, or how good that second choice can seem once the first one is not available. The first year I applied to grad school I only applied to the doctoral program in the anth department where I’d been an undergrad, and which had given me highest honors (so I figured I was a shoo-in). They turned me down, not because I was unqualified but because (I found out later) they thought I would do better if I left the nest. So I had to wait a whole extra year to get started. Let’s say the unexpected happens and, once you start attending, you find you don’t care for St Johns after all. The work you’ve done applying for other schools will give you at least some basis for comparison in determining what it is you don’t like: the size of the school, the department(s) or curricula you’re focusing on, what other options are available, etc. Following on that: if possible, I would take at least one look at one large school, not because I think St. Johns is a bad idea (on the contrary, it looks great), but because the differences might be informative for you and give you ideas you haven't yet considered about how you want to approach college. What opportunities to study abroad do the various schools give you? Does the larger campus have a smaller “residential college” program built into it, which approximates the small college experience? Oh yeah, regarding the money thing. If your folks have the 50k per year available for your education regardless and you end up going some place cheaper, the left over money might be useful as far as semesters abroad, etc. go. (Schools will try to tell you that these don’t cost more than the regular semesters, but they almost always do.) That said, your first choice looks great to me and it’s hard to imagine much would be wrong if that’s where you end up.