Coaching Philosophies and the Gregg Berhalter System

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by Susaeta, Mar 14, 2019.

  1. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    Playing in a top league doesn't make you a top player.

    We got guys like Morales, Yedlin, and Ream who play/played in top leagues but are no top players by any stretch of the imagination.

    Then we got guys like Dest, Reyna, McKennie and Sargent who may or may not become top players, but currently are not.

    Many factors affect current player valuation beyond quality. A young US player with some potential is a commodity: they are rare, and the country has plenty of fans with money to buy subscriptions and merchandise.
     
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  2. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    lol. lots of bitterness to unpack here.

    so, breaking into BVB’s rotation and taking time away from hazard counts for little in your book? I guess what he’s shown while playing at the UCL KO level means that he hasn’t “shown form”?

    but sure, let make it equivalent to playing against MLS squads - it’s comparable level to the majors.

    I’ll also guess that you don’t raise an eyebrow at the amazingly consistent 2/3 MLS roster construction under both arena and Berhalter - nothing to see folks!
     
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  3. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    LA Galaxy
    United States
    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    How long would you keep the press up and are you counting on 5 subs? Do you expect teams to prepare for a 90 minute press and make us pay?
     
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  4. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    LA Galaxy
    United States
    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Reyna doesn't actually replace Hazard who is a work horse. Reyna is a complementary player who makes plays. Berry is right except as to Reyna. Reyna is a special case of early maturity, imo.
     
  5. dspence2311

    dspence2311 Member+

    Oct 14, 2007
    Not really a rejoinder to the market value argument. More of a straw man. But if you think the particular MLS dudes GB seems to like are > the American Bundesliga regulars, we disagree.
     
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  6. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    Disagree.

    All pressing is not high pressing. The line is irrelevant; pressing is about a coordinated level of pressure and engagement.

    I wanted to see if I was crazy so I literally just turned back on the game, and we absolutely (a) came out with more immediate pressure and (b) absolutely pressured Canada into the first corner that led to the first goal.

    We started briefly with high pressure, then settled into a lower line of engagment after Canada got past it, but Zardes, McKennie and Arriola trap on the right in concert, force a bad pass, and off to the races. It's absolutely a counterattack, and it's not a terrifying trap, but it's not the same passive, backpedalling defense we've had.

    Right after the goal, we established a VERY high line and pressed. TIM REAM came careening out when Canada tried to switch -- about 70% of the way down the complete pitch to contest a header, which Yeuill recovers.

    We're 2:45 in, by the way.

    Long makes a bad pass, and while the counter press isn't good, the central mids come up, we don't immediately drop back into a low block. They actually cut through it, so it's not a good press, but it's not a bunker.

    We lose the ball again, and we re-engage quickly, driving back Canada to the half way line. We don't pressure past it, but once we do, we pressure Canada quickly into a turnover. Then we turn it back over ... this time the pressure is kind of lazy, though.

    It's not the most intense pressure. The high line is pretty situational. But there's no one that presses 24/7 high anymore. It applies pressure to the ball in a concerted effort, trap in the corners, cuts off passing lanes, etc. And I know we definitely relax after going up 3-0. We don't do this all game.

    But it's not that passive mid-block. The players are not backpedalling all the time. They are engaging and tackling up near the midline. And they forced turnovers.

    -------------------------------------------------

    I do agree that Berhalter has never been a pressing coach and if we wanted to press hard, we should have gone elsewhere.

    That wasn't the plan. But that doesn't mean his plan is clueless, brings nothing to the table or can't institute some type of press.

    I wouldn't do a high press anyway, and it's become less popular because it exposes the back and actually leaves less space out there. I prefer a more compact press.

    I also don't think we should be pressing contantly. Triggered counterpressing and specific moments, but I don't think it should be constant. You can't keep it up fitness wise, and it's less effective against better teams anyway.

    We have a thin team in terms of overall talent and short turnarounds. I don't want a constant press if it means I have to bench half my team in the second game of a window.

    You keep calling it complicated.

    There's more to it than "run in your vertical lane" sure. So if we're comparing it to Bruce Arena's style of coaching or Klinnsmann - who at the end literally was not giving direction -- sure?

    But what positional play is at its heart is supposed to be a shortcut.

    Teams that play together a ton and have good tactical awareness learn how to play off and with each other over time. There may be instruction, but they also get a feel of how each other wants to play and how to create opportunities for each other.

    The idea behind positional play is to systemize and shortcut that tactical understanding; to cut past some of the hours that you used to get by playing together by teaching the learnings that used to come by osmosis.

    It's more complex than "you play winger, chalk in the grass, put crosses in the air" but that's because it's trying to be better. It's not an either/or. Crappy positional play when you have the ball is frankly better than no positional play.

    You point out as well that the best teams combine positional play with pressing. So... they aren't exclusionary, nor is positional play some thing so confusing the average player can't pick up some helpful elements.

    ---------------------------------

    Part of my big struggle here is that a essentially see the same devolution of argument here -- a disagreement with Berhalter on one point, or a point of concern eventually cascades into argument that he's an idiot, or sucks, or does everything wrong.

    Eventually I just end up seeing things that are fundamentally counterfactual. He gets blasted for everything, and I don't it as deserving.
     
  7. Pegasus

    Pegasus Member+

    Apr 20, 1999
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So there has been much comment on a modern regista and that the US doesn’t have one at present or in the pipeline. Candidates are are weak defensively, can’t make the long switching passes or have other faults that make them less then ideal to be able to generate offense from deal while still protecting the back line and breaking up counters. I think Tanner Tessman may eventually be able to all of those things but is in his first season as a pro at 18. However he is 6-2, very strong, good defensively and can pass long with either foot (60+ field goals with his right foot and 50+ with his left). Just saw a FCD promo piece where it showed him make amazing play with his left peg. Maybe in a few years that type of setup is a possibility if he becomes capable of being that player.
     
  8. juveeer

    juveeer Member+

    Aug 3, 2006
    You really do need to see Yueill live to appreciate all of his game. he really makes that dynamic Quakes attack go for the most part.

    Quakes are a great example of what a good coach can actually accomplish. If watched them the season before their current coach arrived they were BORING and BAD. Now with a lot of the same players, they are one of the most exciting teams in the league to watch. He figured out a role for each of his players and voila, both Lima and Yueill suddenly show up at USMNT camps.

    That never would have happened under the former regime.
     
  9. Calling BS

    Calling BS Member+

    Orlando City
    United States
    Jan 25, 2020
    Panama did not bunker in Orlando. They came out and tried to play us straight up. The coach took a bunch of criticism for that tactic. Interesting side note, the same coach coached Ecuador against us in Orlando too. That time he tried to bunker and hit us on the break. At the post game interview, he said it was the best US team he ever saw. Coincidentally it was the one game TA was healthy for.
     
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  10. juveeer

    juveeer Member+

    Aug 3, 2006
    #3985 juveeer, Jun 30, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2020
    Yes it is. And anyway, that is what he says he wants to do with an aggressive midfield. We shall see.

    We haven't played that system well yet, largely due to the personnel on hand. Now that we have a lot more of the kind of players needed to play that way, we shall see how it looks and if he really means what he says.

    People were moaning on here about build-up play. That is an essential part of the system employed by Dutch teams and part of what Gregg and Earnie want to do. That is why he wants CBs that can control the ball and pass it and at least one MF who can do the same.

    Call it what you want but that IS what I see him trying to implement and once they announced we were going implement a "style of play" it was pretty obvious what we were going to get. We are now getting closer to having the personnel to run it.

    Is it the right system for CONCACAF, esp. away qualifiers? i have my doubts as they will simply try to kick us off the park and the reffing is always atrocious.

    Personally, I would prefer to play more like the Italians who can employ a variety of tactical solutions depending on the situation, the opponent and the way the game is going. But we have never had the players tactically sound and flexible enough to do that.

    Tactics is one of the biggest failures of the US development system IMHO.
     
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  11. juveeer

    juveeer Member+

    Aug 3, 2006
    I don't get Christmas cards but I do see him occasionally at my favorite cafe on St. Armands Circle when he is in his Lido Key condo,
     
  12. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    I am not moaning about the attempt to play that way. I think the style they have chosen exposes our weaknesses and are the things we should focus on.. I am just disgusted by the player selection to attempt it.

    Any idea why he keeps playing a CB like Long who isn't capable of executing it while not having any other special qualities besides athleticism?
     
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  13. dspence2311

    dspence2311 Member+

    Oct 14, 2007
    Ditto. I love that style of play when done well. I just don’t think we can play to our fullest potential if we are not taking advantage of the talents of our beat players. And so far the results would support that view. I don’t think we should lose to Canada or go into matches with Mexico with very little probabilty of victory with our talent. But that’s where we are.
     
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  14. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Obviously Berhalter had to field mainly MLS players in the cupcake games. The rest of the time the international contingent has been affected by injuries or the players involved have been no better than the domestics.

    His ideal starting eleven would probably include 8 or 9 Europe based players with Altidore and Morris representing MLS.

    But after that there's a big drop-off in talent. Boyd, Morales, Green, Miazga, Robinson, Sargent etc haven't looked any better than the domestics.

    Hopefully Reyna will flourish in his first full season with Dortmund and become an automatic starter for Berhalter, but he's not there yet. And Munich seem to have a lot of faith in Richards so I hope that works out sooner rather than later.

    But also there's enough talent coming through in MLS to make Roldan and Lletget just names from past who helped Berhalter craft a winning system.

    Remember that the US performed so well in the 2014 WC with players like Bedoya, Besler, Zusi, Bradley and Beckerman in the team.
     
  15. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    #3990 Patrick167, Jun 30, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2020
    Does he? I think the main argument is player selection and the secondary argument is defensive shape. He is not bashed for much else is he? Granted, those two items are a big part of his job, but he has been poor in both and slow to change.

    It seems like the important players are fully bought in.

    He has done little to get the fans bought in though. From his first roster (Omar!) to his epic losses and lame excuses. He avoids the USMNT specific media, and tends to favor non-specific cupcake interviews on MLS properties and local sports radio. He is overly sensitive to criticism and gets whiny and defensive rather than explain himself logically. Maybe some honesty with the fans and explain to us what he has said to McKennie and Adams and the others to get them bought in.

    If the players get to the level that he needs to execute his ideas, they will all be at a level he never played or coached at. This could become a problem. In the last cycle, having nobodies like Kenny Arena trying to coach players playing in top leagues led to strife in the team. He is is lucky in that his players are young and the young are deferential. He hasn't called in any of the veterans who thought Bruce's kid was a joke interestingly.
     
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  16. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    They scored 3 more goals in 2019 than 2018. The 52 goals were middling in MLS. Hardly dynamic.

    He drastically improved a historically bad defense. But usually that is not described as non-boring or dynamic.

    The former regime was pathetic. The current regime has been average. MLS is a league with built in parity, so movement towards the average is always expected and that is what San Jose did with just some defensive organization.

    Yueill is a good player on an average MLS team. He is not the spear head of some dynamic attack never seen before. That is a player on LAFC.
     
  17. truefan420

    truefan420 Member+

    May 30, 2010
    oakland
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I mean to be fair Ale was still at Nantes and Bradley had literally signed in the MLS half way through the season so he could get PT (and paid) leading up to the WC cause he was struggling at Roma.

    Besler, Zusi and Beckerman were the only MLS lifers of that group.
     
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  18. juveeer

    juveeer Member+

    Aug 3, 2006
    I didn't say you did.

    And that is a fair comment on Long. Personnel is always a question and one of the main things sites like this allow us to express our opinions on.
     
  19. juveeer

    juveeer Member+

    Aug 3, 2006
    LOL.

    You are using hyperbole to argue against points no one made.

    Not picking on you cause I enjoy your posts in general, but this is problem with this site in general. No one said anything close to the bolded, for example.

    As for them being average, that is not too far off. But given that the new regime is getting a ton more out of essentially the same players, well that is a real improvement to get to "average".

    Oh..and # of goals scored is a legit metric but it is not the only metric to judge a teams attack. They are still relying on the ancient poacher for a lot of their goals. If the owners would spend a little, like for a player more like the guy at LAFC, I think you would see a lot more chances being converted.
     
  20. yurch10

    yurch10 Member+

    Feb 13, 2004
    Hyperbole? He quoted your post where you said that "the dynamic Quakes attack" are "one of the most exciting teams in the league". He literally used your adjective, dynamic. Hardly hyperbole.

    He also took your post and used a statistic to prove it was inaccurate. You said it was a dynamic, exciting to watch attack. He showed it was a league average attack. Then your point is effectively "well, it would be if they spent more and had better players". That makes zero sense. Either find a different stat to show Yeuill is spearheading a dynamic attack, or admit Yeuill spearheads a league average attack.
     
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  21. Pegasus

    Pegasus Member+

    Apr 20, 1999
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I see how there is a disagreement on their dynamic attack. SJ is the only team in the league who uses man marking the whole game. It disorients the opposition and makes watching games they’re in very different. Stats wise maybe not but eyeballs note something is very different going on.
     
  22. sXeWesley

    sXeWesley Member+

    Jun 18, 2007
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Of course I am not counting on 5 subs. Did teams only ever start pressing with the advent of more subs?

    It would vary by opponent and circumstance, as these things usually do. I would anticipate our opponents trying to anticipate our gameplan no matter what it was and would expect a competent coach to prepare us properly.

    Maybe I am missing the point you are getting at, but a press does not make us any more likely to be gameplanned against and outwitted. Remember that time a vastly inferior Canada coached circles around us?
     
  23. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    LA Galaxy
    United States
    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Yeah, they surprised us, didn't they?
     
  24. randomnoise

    randomnoise Member

    United States
    Mar 26, 2017
    I, for one, was not surprised. I am reasonably certain that many of us anticipated a poor showing that night in Toronto. I will grant you that Gregg might have been surprised though.

    We do know that he changed his tactics in the second game, and based on the Canadian coaches' post-game comments, did in fact surprise them.

    But what has this got to do with the point about high pressing? We did not run a high press in that game, did we?
     
  25. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    Over a year with Gregg and I've noticed something: he just doesn't talk to independent knowledgeable soccer guys. He does a lot of local sports radio. He does short interviews (probably contractual) with MLS and broadcast partners. He goes on non-soccer specific shows.

    His latest was 20 minutes with a podcast about sports analytics. He basically talked data and how to get it. Any kind of interesting nugget about the NT was not followed up because the hosts are not really invested in the USMNT. In their wrap up, they completely confuse the GC Final with the Mexico friendly.

    He did the interview with AO, but that was an amateur interviewer with pre-screened questions. I don't believe he has ever done 20 minutes with a podcast like Scuffed or TSS.

    And that Mexico friendly....Gregg is unbelievably touchy about that game. He rarely talks about any other game. What few interviews he does, he always brings it up and always spins it as a success. Maybe you need a giant Ego to be a head coach, because Gregg has the same problem as Bradley, Klinsmann, and especially Arena, not being able to admit errors. Maybe Gregg privately knows different but refuses to back down in public. He did mention later that fan support is important.

    But I do think the internal Gregg thinking on that Mexico game is:

    "We had internal goals as a team. We accomplished those goals. However, the result, which isn't important to us, was important to the fans. The fans are important to our future success. So, we will not run crazy training exercises with second choice personnel on national TV against Mexico."

    I'm not sure he is actually onto that last sentence. His obsession with the narrative of that game is getting scary..

    I'm starting to worry that the job is too big or he has no idea what he is really doing. He sounds so defensive about that game. He sounds un-genuine because when he is trying to spin it, you can tell he is just spinning it. Hurts his credibility. Plus, the Canada game was worse.
     
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