Classic matches with modern eyes

I've opened a new thread here because in the end it doesn't fit neatly in already existing categories.

It aren't necessarily one of the best games by classic players; they don't fit in classic tournaments; it is not restricted to the evolution of tactics; or how much different current football is (with less tackles and crosses) as yesterday.

Rather, it is with the eyes of today looking at games of yesterday.

I'll start here with Portugal vs France 1984 that was covered on Belgian television a few weeks ago.

"Frank (it is this Frank), we go 10 years back in time [BEL vs NED '94] to one of the best EC matches."

"Yes certainly. At the World Cup there is always the Italy - Germany match of '70 mentioned, but this is the match in terms of scoresheet evolution looks like it. It is a match where an enormous amount happened, and Portugal was also a good team. Technically good, really good football was played. You see also the shadow lines in Marseille... I saw the match on television because I wasn't a journalist yet. It has always made an impression and it was also the moment of Platini, that tournament was the tournament of Platini."

Also very, very interesting was Stuttgart vs Napoli of 1989 or Barcelona vs Anderlecht of the same year (where they already notice the inverted full-back thing, with the benefit of hindsight, and conclude it is a logical effect of this methodology).

.................... To be continued.

 

I will get this underway again.

Mainly, I will take the ones with international significance and/or the ones really well done. Thus for example France vs Portugal 1984, Manchester vs Real Madrid 2003.

Here I covered Belgium vs Uruguay in the 1990 World Cup:

https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/b...er-dor-1954-2010.1853033/page-6#post-39093986

 

One thing not made very precise there is the offside law changes. Yes, it was relaxed after 1990, but softening of the 'interfering with play' criteria came in 1995 and 2005.

http://www.kenaston.org/download/KenAstonRefereeSociety/offside_history-JulianCarosi.pdf
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2010/apr/13/the-question-why-is-offside-law-genius
https://www.fifa.com/u20worldcup/news/netherlands-2005-pioneer-use-offside-rule-clarifications-98021

It's not wrong perse what they say there, but it can be made more precise. As said there by the panel: the example of Scifo on the left-back position triggering offside, is also offside today.

 

There are also some others like one for Beckham, Ronaldinho and Pirlo.

One notable section in the Rooney piece is the statement RvN made a "rare through-ball". However, at Champions League level this was evidently less rare as in the league, with a number of examples around (there is also an Arsenal match where he doesn't score but creates two goals that way). In the 2003 Real Madrid encounters there are also examples of him dribbling past defenders (in the danger zones), including a tunnel move in the center of the pitch as well (he scored in the home and away game).

Him being tussling ('elbowing') with defenders in that particular Fenerbahce match might also be just a ploy to give Rooney and co more space to work with. Space and channels that were there, as the piece notes, while keeping the defenders at bay.

One quote that sometimes returns is the one from Scholes about RvN sitting unhappy in the bus when he heard Henry had scorer and he didn't. But, as RvN himself said in response (while immediately adding Henry was the better player), it was his job to score goals. 'Striker' was on his card.

One major reason that in the end I nevertheless appreciate him (while he had domestically mixed reception in his own time), is that he proved several times he could co-exist with a high scoring midfielder or forward. Scholes in 2003, who says in his Soccerbox episode "I had my best season with Ruud", but also some other instances as the rejuvenated Raul or at euro 2008 (while scoring against Italy and Russia himself). This is not an automatic given with any striker.

 

Host: "France was with us in the group."

Raes: "Painful."

Host: "We were blamed there."

Raes: "The first game against Yugoslavia was won, but the France won 5-0 and Platini scores three. You have to pay attention because Platini scores with his left outside the box, with his right from a penalty and with his head. Quite strong that. Pfaff was absolutely not happy at all, but this was also the period with the bribery affair. Gerets wasn't allowed to go by the federation, Meeuws and Preud'homme were barred. Not an Italian solution as in 2006 we can say. The team was ill certainly."

Van der Elst: "We saw Scifo and Grun instead."

Raes: "Yes, Grun and Scifo were discovered for the international market, especially Enzo Scifo. Platini was really in the form of his life, also in all the other games because he scored in each game. Including the final, with his only shot on target, where Arconada fumbled the shot into his goal. Five of his nine goals came directly or indirectly from a set piece situation, with which the captain and the 'roosters' gained a margin. The first really big tournament France wins, with Platini as star of the nation, unfortunately it went wrong a bit later on as a manager and official."

Host: "It is the year you were called up for the first time Frank."

Van der Elst: "Yes... december '84 was the first game. I was called up earlier, before the summer, but didn't play. It was also the year I went to Brugge. We had rented a home and I was painting the house when I heard on the radio 5-0. "

Raes: "It was really a flop."

Host: "Maybe it fastened your process. Other choices had to be made."

Van der Elst: "Mmmm yes... What certainly played a part for me was the transfer to Club. So was it still the situation at that time, if you played at a big club in name, it went easier to get in the starting line-up for the national team."

Host: "In that year your team RWDM dropped down from mid-table to the relegation zone. So France beat Denmark, Belgium and Yugoslavia and went without a loss of point up against Portugal. The semi final was played in Marseille, where thanks to the mistral it was very windy."

[....]

Host: "God in France. The 2-2 was from Jean-Francois Domergue and not by Bellone as I initially thought. The only two goals Domergue ever made for the national team, in the semi final."

Raes: "Yes, yes. His Thuram moment. The moment de gloire. Sort of a one trick pony. He's still regularly interviewed for that. Actually Amoros was normally playing, but he was suspended."

Host: "Fantastic match this right."

Van der Elst: "Yes, absolutely. I've seen this match twice within a few years now. It was indeed... Not directly the first fifteen minutes but..."

Raes: "It started slow."

Van der Elst: "It had to settle but then after a slow burn it started, especially in the second half. It helps when a goal is scored."

Raes: "The midfield of course remains famous. Fernandes was the lumberjack. The Van der Elst of France... well you was less of a wood-cracker but the same position."

Van der Elst: "Mwah."

Raes: "But then you had Giresse, Tigana and Platini, the crown jewel of football. That was God then. Nine goals in five games and always the decisive man."

Host: "Four days later the final was played in the Parc des Princes and also that final the French brought to a good end. Gigantic blunder by Arconada. If you can pick your moments to make mistakes then... Kahn did it once against Brazil and Real Madrid. He also on a crucial moment."

Raes: "Bellone with the second. Bellone played for Didier Six, who was injured. Six played as a footnote once twelve games in 1980 in our league. In their own country, just as in 1998 the world championships of course."

Host: "How strong was Platini as footballer when you regard his whole career?"

---------------------

To be continued with the second and last part (the more interesting part, actually)

 

https://sporza.be/nl/2020/06/11/sporza-retro-ek-1984-frankrijk-portugal/

Raes: "Fantastic footballer, with Juventus also topscorer. He had depth and verticality, he knew what he had to do, left, right, with the head. Also with Juventus very strong. With of course that wonderful midfield around him that helped him to excel. At the end of the 20th century the eminent sportspaper L'Equipe pointed to Platini as sportsman of the century, but the footballer of the century was Zidane. Who had just won the EC and WC. So that's peculiar, it was a different jury. The footballers chose Zidane, maybe I had done the same if I look at this in generality. But they belong both I think to the top 10, top 20 in pictured history. Platini grew further into a bobo function, and also made it his downfall."

Van der Elst: "He also knew habitually the moment of running, comparable to Lampard for the younger viewers. Knew without the ball, but also with the ball, how to pick the moment of vertical running well. In this game as well, up until ten times you saw him coming from deep in midfield and delivering that effort. He also did a bit on the field right, in effort."

Host: "Physically he was well equipped."

Van der Elst: "Yes, sometimes collected the ball from deep as if he were Cruijff."

Host: "As 10 he was almost box-to-box."

Raes: "Yes."

Van der Elst: "That entire midfield was very dynamic, Luis Fernandes included."

Raes: "He almost always kicked between the posts as well. 26 shots, 15 between the posts 9 goals. With one penalty and two free kicks. Great goal instinct, more than Zidane in actuality."

Van der Elst: "That's a good point because we have so far also seen others with the resonance of Platini, where we thought: ouch, the shooting doesn't look too well. Some of the major stars at Mexico '86 and '70, England '66, Italy '80."

Host: "He scored nine of the fifteen French goals and you just said he scored left, right and with the head against Belgium, he did the same against Yugoslavia."

Raes: "Yeah, the devils defeated Yugoslavia with 2-0. France had more difficulty. The multi-faceted nature is obvious. And always appearing on the striker position, was sometimes posted there, but often he arrived there. Also the free kicks, he could do quite a bit and it's a pity Platini has lost his aura, you can say."

Van der Elst: "Fantastic footballer."

Raes: "Subsequently he also helped to take the 1998 World Cup to France and he was God the Father. Money and vanity is what did him."

Host: "His status was apparent at half-time. Pacheco of Portugal already asked his shirt after 45 minutes."

Raes: "Yes, here we see it. Little bit strange."

Host: "We focus now on Platini, logical if you see what he does on that tournament. But if you watch the game against Portugal you also see what Alain Giresse all does."

Raes: "Very good indeed."

Host: "Because how tall he was? 1.63?"

Raes: "1.63m indeed, and he also often appeared in advanced positions. He distributed, was the playmaker of the team."

Van der Elst: "Stood often on the right side because Six played on the left but naturally higher, and he came from the right."

Raes: "But he distributed also a great amount. Was as they say in German the 'Dreh- und Angelpunkt'. The railway turntable you can say. And Platini that was a click. Tigana was technically good. Played on purpose with number fourteen because he - like Platini - found an inspiration there. He was more defensive than Giresse, but Giresse was always playable and always does something good. Giresse has technically rarely a problem. Here no offside by Luis Fernandez, he also came up ahead. Fernandez, well, he cleaned up, tidied up, the lot if it was needed. The others did that less. Tigana started the game weak, but Giresse was really during the full 120 minutes, together with Platini, the standout. And that Bento you see now, the goalkeeper, was also good and making good decisions. Only 1.73! Giresse again, he comes out of the situation again. Then Bossis, the central defender who moved ahead with ease. Giresse goes deep here himself, and cuts back on, indeed, Platini. And remarkable again: relatively few shots astray from the posts. Outside of the boot [Giresse], through-ball on Ferreri, who had come in as substitute. Because strikers of a high level is a story in itself. They didn't quite have that in 1984 and also in 1998. That was with Henry, Trezeguet, that is where it started. And Platini sort of replaced all these strikers."

Host: "You also want to mention the shortest Portuguese."

Raes: "Yes, 1.65, Bento the keeper 1.73. Chalana, man with a sizable mullet. Was also called 'Asterix', and five Portuguese players had a mustache. That was fashion. [laughter in studio]. That Chalana was strong at Benfica, lost the UEFA Cup final the year before against Anderlecht. Was already when he was 17 years [and 8 months] old international for Portugal, something of a prodigy. Went after this tournament to Bordeaux and withered away in forgetfulness because of injuries. But he provided and carried the goals right? Here swift past Tigana, golden left he had, is a forgotten artist, I might say. Provided also both goals in this match, both scored by Jordao, which we'll see here. Jordao maybe the best Portugal player on the pitch this game. Bats floored here by a sort of lobbed header. And with a good cross. Domergue, the hero of the day, was here turned inside-out by Chalana. Was also called 'Cyrano de Bergerac' by the way..."

Host: "Because he had a red nose."

Raes: "Yes, but still, that was living material then. Chalana was for once a hero and this is pretty much the defining match of his career, with the entertainment and the two assists. Did you have a mustache Frankie?"

Van der Elst: "Yes of course."

Host: "It was a fine game, but I have also seen some nasty mistakes."

Raes: "Yes, that was then... If there was VAR then... some of the challenges by the French players, and on Platini. Here we see a 'Beckham-Simeone' scene, exactly the same retaliation, with more force applied. First Fernandez here, then Frasco. Baf. Ferandez another leg up high. But no card. The referee gave no cards, only for laughable non-existent fouls and trivialities. Here another leg high and retaliation by Fernandez. If the VAR had seen this, then probably at least a red card. And here again, Platini dispossess the ball incorrectly, then gets a fierce kick in return. Again Frasco. That was then possible. The referee Bergamo from Italy only gave yellow cards for nothing. Fernandez caught here, and what does he in return? One headbutt to the nuts and the pelvis of the opponent. Then here some time wasting... and yes, then you do get a yellow. That was then in '84"

Host: "This gives us a certain randomness in the outcome we can say."

------------------

I hope this is appreciated

 

Chalana had, aided by injuries, lifestyle and not getting released, just 27 caps. Half of these came before his 22th birthday. Seven before turning 20.

 

For completeness - and because this is of course a match of international significance - I'll do here the second half of this show now. It was about the 1988 semi final:



Host: Time for the orange shirts. Yes Youri I have to look at birth dates and birthplace for these episodes. You was nineteen.

Mulder: I was nineteen. Nineteen and a few months. Yes we looked at all these matches in public, on the street, the public spaces, pubs. I was then on school... no, just finished with my VWO [the highest level of secondary education].

Joos: Not a professional footballer right.

Mulder: No, I only became that two years later. One 1988 match I also visited, that was the Ireland match in Gelsenkirchen [one hour removed from the border]. We were all supporter.

Joos: Ireland was Kieft.

Mulder: Yes, yes.

Host: What I don't entirely know, was Netherlands favorite in that tournament?

Mulder: Hmmmm, I don't know precisely either.

Joos: They were Youri. PSV had just won the European Cup, Ajax lost the Cup Winners Cup final against a red-white-blue coach and dito players, Gullit was the European player of the Year and received rave reviews from George Best.

Mulder: Yes well look... Van Basten was sort of the best player though and was injured. There were doubts about that.

Host: He was on the bench in the opening against the Soviet Union, then made a positive impression as substitute.

Mulder: But you know, the attitude in Holland is also...

Joos: You was favorite.

Mulder: Yes of course. 'Is the Pope a Catholic' you know. For every tournament you are a favorite, at least against the other favorites. We can have a plan, and it helps there are only eight opponents to study, and we can have the players too. I see here five players of a really high technical, conceptual and tactical class whereas the current team I'd say has just about three.

Joos: And current Belgium.

Mulder: About three too I think.

Host: But I see your doubts, you weren't there in the three previous tournaments. We had eliminated you for '86, then finalist Spain on a lousy goal difference before that, and podium finisher France for '82.

Mulder: For me it was the first...

Joos: Yes, yes, the first you have clear ideas on.

Mulder: Yes exactly, I only know those tournaments in my youth as ones we weren't there.

Host: Then you also begin the tournament dramatic because you lose against the Russians.

Mulder: Yes, but the idea also was... My father said for example 'it was a very good game by Oranje, it is fine.' And of course, with a analytical mind you see how the game looks and such. But that doesn't interest all people. You want that they win, as supporter. You don't remember they were good. This was Van Basten against England, a phenomenal game, and I found this in the emotion an incredibly good game by the team, maybe the best... but well yes... it wasn't.

Host: This was the match you were at.

Mulder: Yes. Wasn't so fantastic. The Netherlands needed to win this.

Host: I still ask myself where the effect of the header comes from.

Mulder: Well I think...

Host: It is like a screwshot in billiards?

Mulder: You know how this comes about, it is related to what I just said [apparently it's cut out of the broadcast?]. It is the non-slipping pitch, and Koeman with his injured foot doesn't hit the ball well, he hits the ball on the upper side, by which a topspin effect is given to the shot. And Kieft receives the ball on his head, but there is so much effect on it that there is already pace and direction to it on the moment it glances off his head. The trick for him was not doing 'too much'.

Joos: Without this goal you were out right.

Mulder: Yes, yes. And it was also offside, with the rule then that standing level was offside. VAR could have changed so many tournaments.

Host: The match you picked out is not the final but the semi final, against West Germany. Who had as principal names Voller, Matthaus, Klinsmann.

Mulder: Yes, a home playing team of course. Cannot be underestimated. Netherlands had problems with the hotel allocation and also the holes in the training pitch, but had the advantage of playing in Hamburg.

Host: This is Klinsmann against Denmark and then later we see Voller against Spain.

Joos: Spain was very erratic in the 1980s.

Mulder: West Germany was of course a good team and they... you will also see it here, Oranje had grown in the tournament, Van Basten was launched and at last we will win, because that was the sentiment of course in the late 80s and early 90s. You also see that in this match. Watch.

Host: In 1988 Hamburger Sport Verein is still a club of consideration. The Volksparkstadion is a temple you don't like to go, and there West Germany plays a home game as favorites. Yet Holland sort of plays a home game too... Luckily there is a half-neutral Belgian in the stands to do the commentating.

[....]

Host: Twice there was contact but two questionable penalties; Netherlands the champion in Munich, the eyes of Youri are blinking now. Is it strange to see this with Belgian commentary?

Mulder: Yes because normally it is... the most famous commentary is with Ten Napel.

Host: True.

Mulder: With the legendary quote at the end: 'The Volksparkstadion is of Oranje'. Well yes. We had the feeling the whole country will be conquered by Oranje, we'll now move on to the bunkers and the headquarters. It was for me also, now I see it... I became in 1990 active footballer and if you are footballer you come more in the eye of the storm. The things around it you experience less. You also start to experience... and I mean also if you're journalist.

Joos: Certainly.

Mulder: As commentator you also see it different, then you are also not shouting on the stands... Unless you are Jack van Gelder of course. But this was the last tournament where you are really incredibly happy about a match. We were in ecstasy. The whole country veered up. Not only this semi final, but also the England game.... We were together in pubs where you watched the game, whole families with babies there, everyone in orange. That was new and something, to use the word, incredible. I have fantastic memories about that.

Host: Yes, do you also have a sense of pride now, when you recollect all this?

Mulder: Yes, yes. Not by definition the winning of matches itself, but the public around it, the set of ideas the team stand for, how the polyglot players present themselves. This are all heroes for me; I exaggerate now quite a bit, but when I see Van Basten or Gullit, and work with them, yeah then something enters the room. They 'fill the room' as they in America say. Not that everyone automatically nods in agreement, but each time they generally earn that respect again. Rijkaard is more on the background now, you don't see him any more, but this are real blokes, this is the tenth dan in judo.

Host: Was this game seen as the ultimate correction of 1974?

Mulder: Hmmm... Not exactly by me and my generation. I was five in 1974. It was a sometimes stirred up by the media and of course you saw sometimes Van Breukelen going berserk in that game, standing above a striker, Erwin Koeman receiving a potentially career-ending foul in injury time; but I saw during the match, too... You just saw yourself Koeman picking up Völler. You see they also have respect for Völler, for Klinsmann - with some of these opponents liked by them. Who they also came to know well of course, in Milan.

Host: I quickly said 'Netherlands champion', but that wasn't the case yet right. It was the semi final. Who was your stand-out in the game? If you can only pick one?

Mulder: Well I found... Look, Van Basten and Gullit received attention. Koeman was for me, he began very strong. He took the team by the hand. They played then a little bit... Look at these passes here, the pace and the variation. He had such a great kicking technique. This is what they often did, playing the striker and in the mean-time someone else has already moved. His brother already moved centrally here.

Joos: Erwin was the whole match moving, received in injury time a rough kick as compliment.

Mulder: Yes absolutely. And you just said during the highlights: 'Koeman kicks the penalty with the inside of his foot, and still with pace right. That Koeman I once had... during a match he was coach of PSV and the day before the match they trained, and the trainers started to kick and pass balls to each other. Jesus, what a striking technique, really superb. Kicking and passing with the instep, and doing that right, is one of the hardest things to do in football.

Joos: Hmmm, hmmm.

Mulder: He could do that perfectly.

Host: He placed it from 50 meters distance on your chest and necktie.

Mulder: Yes.

Host: You said: I saw respect in the match. Was it decent what Koeman did with the shirt of Olaf Thon?

Mulder: No of course not. There is a well-known picture but yes... Koeman is also embarrassed by it today. Banal joke. It is the shirt of Olaf Thon and I went then later, five years later, to Schalke. And again a year later Olaf Thon returned to his home city, from Bayern. But players ought to not make jokes about that, because...

Joos: While he was, and that made it absolutely the wrong shirt, a very decent and okay guy.

Mulder: Ohhh, Olaf was absolutely an okay guy and an okay player. He still is. In Germany they didn't say...

Joos: They didn't say thank you. [laughter in the studio].

Mulder: Sometimes people made a joke about it, mmmyes.

Joos: It is appealing and professional how Koeman has all elevated and transcended above it. He once said, with PSV, you have to make a professional foul on Tigana. Against Bordeaux, on camera. He has lost that all. He is now... He was suspended for that comment right?

Mulder: Yes, that he said Gillhaus his foul on Tigana was good, because that was "professional". Real Madrid woke up and got him suspended. Yes, I don't like that, and this not either, but I understand in the pressure before such game...

Joos: Yes.

Mulder: That it gets built up...

Joos: Yeah, but I find it commendable how he has developed himself. Afterwards as player and as coach. As a sort of gentleman and man of distinction.

Mulder: Yes agreed. But this are all still young men.

Joos: Yeah.

Mulder: That moderates and develops later.

Host: If you ask people of our generation: name one moment of that tournament. Then they will say the volley in the final. There was a similar moment in the game against West Germany...

Mulder: Yes, this is that goal against the Soviet Union. One phenomenal goal with great importance, that has rarely been equaled or copied at elite level. Phenomenal. But against Germany, I was watching, and you see him here from the right rather than the left making the same move after a much better pass by Vanenburg. Van Basten walks away in the same way, same short steps...

Joos: Short steps.

Mulder: Away from the ball, body momentum away from the goal. But here he heads it across goal, rather than shooting.

Joos: He could have done it with his left maybe.

Mulder: With his left, he had that quality and angle with his left surely. But you saw that team... Netherlands was in this game genuinely a class better as the opponent, and that also came because of these standard patterns. And this is also such pattern, moving away to the sides. You saw in the highlights the winning goal and just before there was the same situation.

Joos: Absolutely.

Mulder: Where Wouters has the ball and plays deep.

Joos: It was maybe not his most liberated game, but he is so noticeable. The elegance, the turning away from Matthaus as if he is a head shorter, the one touch play, the class.

Mulder: Yes.

Host: We will talk about Gullit briefly. Gullit was a leadership figure at Oranje I think. He didn't make his greatest impression here.

Mulder: No... Not super great but what Gullit...

Joos: Personality in abundance.

Mulder: Personality. And also that strength you still see in some moves - in the final itself he was in his element. Look here in Hamburg... This is a playing position though where later in his national team career he didn't like to play [right wing]. He played on paper with Van Basten up front but in reality they ran everywhere with Gullit often on the right wing. Coninx [the commentator] also says it: "Gullit is placed and in his element everywhere." Radiation, charisma, giving a natural comfort to people. [...] Look at how he heads the ball in, the conviction. The strange thing is we as supporters made ourselves nervous for the semi final, but for this match...

Joos: It was a bonus and already won.

Mulder: Yes, we knew they'd win and that it was already a success. That conviction was big in the team.

Host: Even though you had lost the opener against the same team.

Joos: Yes, but you were, indeed, better than the Russians in the first match. And then with the luggage of the semi final.

Mulder: There were no worries, yes. You also see that in the polls of that time.

Host: Eight years later Youri you played your only tournament. Was that the high point of your career, for yourself?

Mulder: Experiencing an European Championship is a big thing, I had a good and individually successful season but with playing for Oranje I was punching a bit above my weight there. That was a weak tournament for Oranje. Yet at the same time it was nothing for Holland. And yet, almost it was. Quarter final against France, our best players go out injured, but we grow in the match and almost scored the golden goal. Seedorf also one vs one in front of the French keeper. Then you play against Czech the semi final and... it are also the small things. Like that ball of Kieft, like having fresh players for the final. Yes.

Host: It became penalties. Were you on the list?

Mulder: Yes, I was number six in the row. Against France, the only game I played [as substitute]. Indeed.

Joos: The first to take after the first ten.

Mulder: I saw my parents, was of course relatively fresh, when we had to wait... And as you perhaps know my father was regularly hammering on those penalties. I don't say it was a trauma for me but as a boy... we as boys always took penalties. I was happy Seedorf missed... joking now. I don't think by the way Holland players are in normal time bad penalty takers, rather the opposite.

Host: France won 5-4.

Mulder: I had liked to take it, Carl.

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@PDG1978

 

Have to think about the next one, which one is really good.

Maybe Portugal vs England of 2004, but have to check.

 

What seems to have been universally forgotten about the Ireland game, is that there was a potential goal disallowed as well, which could/should have made it to six scored goals. Here at 03:45. Many referees don't cancel that chance; Horst Brummeier of Austria did.

England vs Cameroon of 1990 looks as a good one so far, after quickly glancing over.

 

Your patronizing/haughty approval is appreciated - in the other thread, of course, you sided with peterhrt. I need to be away for several days now anyway.

As for the main paragraph: they didn't mark Maradona in 1982 and Francescoli/Gascoigne in 1990 closely either (for example). It worked, because there was an actual plan and an actual diligent execution of the plan. That was in the case of Platini in 1984 quite obviously lacking. Maybe, with the focus not optimal and training not optimal, a simpler man marking approach from the stone age will work better then.

The same holds for the 1986 semi final when they were obviously depleted and knackered (and Argentina was the better team either way, in particular with their players on that form), just as France was eventually in the 1986 semi final (after playing extra time and facing Italy, Brazil before). Two offside scenes, one vs one on the Argentine keeper, where however still wrongly cancelled. Might be a simpler defensive approach has a lower error rate in this scenario.

That is the obvious reality here, and of course, unlike say Germany in 1996 you can't suddenly arrange the shipping in of fresh, non-suspended players for your training and matchday squad.

 

This is right, it is similar to what is posted for euro 1992 with him being #2 there, narrowly behind McAllister.

https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/e...s-of-all-players.2109350/page-2#post-38604450

He had one assist himself, as well as a penalty won. Directly involved in seven of the eight goals - against real top teams clearly (four of the five opponents top five in the world per Elo).

Next week or the week after I will take another one. I have seen bits on a Roger Milla and Valderrama game are also interesting insight, other bits not so much.

 

It is also worth saying the consensus (or lowest denominator) pick for best commentator ever is certainly not the one people abroad seem to know best: Van Gelder (mentioned above). He has been picked out abroad, without all people knowing his name but recognizing his commentary, it is nice entertainment, but usually comes a long way behind either Kuiphof (the classic 1970s commentator) or Reitsma. Reitsma commentated the '95 winning goal as if it was a funeral (on a youtube video the title is "do not shout at every chance"). He also famously commentated the 1992 Barcelona win on Wembley, with regards to 'foreign wins', where he found the perfect words for that occasion and breakthrough moment (e.g. "grown up in Groningen, mature at Ajax and PSV, man of the world in Barcelona", "likely more cups will come but this will always remain the first, after 100 years"). The Ten Napel commentary mentioned there (examples in link), was at that time also seen on the edge of what can be acceptable (but clearly toned down compared to Jack).

Just saying this since I know you have also from time to time come up with, or recalled, Jackie videos...

 

I'll do the Napoli vs Stuttgart 1989 match now. All three speakers are essentially from the same generation, that grew up with these players (born 1970, 1971, 1973).


Host: I come now to your pick [Barcelona vs Anderlecht 1989 the previous one]. It didn't surprise me you searched the mustard in Italy.

Joos: Yes, because in this period Italian football really started to become dominant, with the arrival of Milan and the reactions to them bringing about Italian football becoming top, not the least a leap forward to tactical excellence. And I also wanted... I mean Maradona has to fit in somewhere, one of the most naturally talented players, for many who grew up then the most naturally talented. We all pronounce his name incorrectly by the way, it should be [name here] as they say in Naples. That was then an outstanding team, I thought, I don't think that now any more. It was Maradona and Careca, those two lads. Careca the Brazilian, top striker, with style as well, and Maradona who had to prompt the lot. And the rest is a mishmash, a bunch of athletes pulled together. Of men who with the head down, as an ostrich, barraged forward, enormous passion. 85000 to 89000 people in the stadium. Officially 80000 but the so called [cannot hear] who went in their wake. That was Naples, the passion we don't understand, that is what I wanted to see back.

Host: The match you selected is Napoli vs Stuttgart. The frame of the game?

Joos: Final of the UEFA Cup then, I almost wanted to say Europa League. In two games, this was the first leg. Napoli had on the road eliminated Juventus in the quarter final. After losing 2-0 away against not the best Juventus of these years. The home match won with 3-0 after extra time, I remember that match well, I saw it on the RAI then, and here we see scoring Maradona the 1-0 from a penalty. And this is not... this is a sociological phenomenon. This is the poor south - Carnevale who scores outside the box - beating the rich north. All those Neapolitan on the stands have family members who work in the factories of FIAT, and in the end it is Renica who scores in the 120th minute, after a dribble by Carnevale on the outside and a cross. The result is a pandemonium. Renica you always recognized because - it is not so simple to spot players - he had white socks above his sky blue stockings, so you always saw Renica. The sweeper who walked on that field. Libero but actually was walking everywhere. That's also noticeable, it is really a mess often. Whether the coach Bianchi intended so... I'm not sure. But those players... they followed their men, because there was a high amount of direct marking, and then yeah, you ended up somewhere where you don't really belong. Really a strange sort of football.

Host: Hmmm.

Joos: Arie Haan is by the way coach of Stuttgart here, and Sigurvinsson played. I didn't highlight him here in the video material but...

Host: Arnor Sigurvinsson who also played at Standard.

Joos: Yes. Gosh, he really could play football. He is there already 34 years old, but he regulates Stuttgart on the midfield, you can see that a bit. Played really bright and cultured.

Host: Filip, what is so appealing of the Maradona figure to you. Because on the one hand you have the brilliantly gifted footballer, on the other hand all the reckless stuff with little care for other people.

Joos: Have you seen the documentary.

Host: Yes.

Joos: I mean, how can he not appeal to you. What appeals to me is the genius, and a lot comes with it. This is the famous warming up we see here, the same year. About which some people say "there they already won the game", but that is of course in the category 'Hineininterpretieren'. Imagine they lose 3-0 then everyone will say "that elevated Maradona thought he could warm up with loose laces", but yeah... It's a boys book right - and it is Icarus. And what appeals enormously is he played seven years in Naples, came from Barcelona where wasn't an unqualified improvement of the team, and then when he arrived in Naples they had just escaped relegation, handicapped by an explosion of injuries and troubles. And imagine that, a top footballer, a world level footballer, going to such environment. After other good players arrived, he emancipated Napoli. That is the reason in the city you see still shrines. Where you see one curl of hair - probably just from a dog - vero capelli di Diego. Real hairs of Diego. People making a cross sign there.

Host: Haha. The one man team.

Joos: With Careca. You really need to add him. Only three foreigners. Alemao was the third. He was also a Brazilian and Alemao means 'the German'. That was not... he broke up a lot, was important for the balance of the side, but don't think he was Gerson or the other Brazilian stereotypes. Don't think he initiated or started the majority of attacks in subtle and slight ways, no, that went with force and with Wagner music. The ones who want to compare Messi with Maradona, should look at this game in full, and then you realize it is impossible, genuinely impossible. That's not apples and pears, it is kiwis with fruit on the north pole. Impossible. He is rarely put into position, receives often and sends occasionally terrible balls. Well what... start to watch.

Host: Yes, we are watching now. Not the full game but a long highlight of half an hour. It is 3 may 1989, the first leg of the final UEFA Cup. 89000 people to experience the game, and our commentator then was Frank Raes.

[second part will follow]

 

Second part.

https://sporza.be/nl/2020/05/21/sporza-retro-napoli-stuttgart-barcelona-anderlecht/

Host: 2-1. It is a starting position that isn't always rosy is you go into Europe. But they made it in the away game.

Joos: That was 3-3 in Stuttgart. Rather easily I'd say, although Jürgen Klinsmann was back, who was suspended in the first leg and that made a difference for the completion of the team.

Host: He scored the 1-0 right.

Joos: Then it became 1-3 and this is classic, how he lets briefly run the ball behind his legs, turn, and Careca finishes nicely. Stuttgart rallied back to 3-3 but... This is his only European triumph because how many European Cup games has Maradona played you think, Gert?

Verheyen: No idea.

Joos: Six.

Verheyen: Oofffh.

Joos: Yes. I also looked at these of yours. You are on 34...

Verheyen: [starts laughing]

Joos: Scored 6 times, without a penalty, and 23 goals in all continental games. Maradona scored 2 goals, against Ujpest where Istvan Brockhauser also played. But it was also they immediately played Real Madrid in the first round. These two goals were the only two UEFA goals that didn't come from the penalty spot [for Napoli].

Host: Maradona also scored more often in Camp Nou than Gert because he played there more often.

Joos: Yeah...

Verheyen: Can we now stop with the comparison.

Joos: No, but this is improbable right. Six games in the cup of champions, the best footballer in the world.

Host: Haan became at the age of 36 coach of Antwerp, then went to Stuttgart. He went there for the close following of Maradona, is that the right choice?

Joos: Well, that is how it was. I think it wasn't a bad choice, and it was not only marking, but also a container around it too [video shown]. The mister Hartmann followed Maradona, we picked out a few scenes, and few called that then 'if he goes to the sanitary you follow him'. That is watching ball and man, so very often also - typical - moving sideways. Then it is to the others to build up and you also see it in the match, there is a moment where Maradona is played most easily at throw-ins. And even more so than the midfielders, strikers as Careca were always closely followed. Here Maradona has a poor control and loses the ball, because he didn't play a super great game right? Lost the ball very often and unnecessary. This is a stupendous control, here you see he is laid in the cradle for football. Then all those opponents see him, he thinks having the solution, and then you need team-mates who see it and can relay the game. This is Ferrara who has to go towards his right leg, not their best footballer. And this is the picture of the game. That the absolute stars of the game are locked, consequently.

Host: Yes.

Joos: I also say often, you see him there above you Carl with Mars. He had three sponsors: Cirio, tomato sauce. Buitoni, pasta. Mars, candy bars. He became fatter with Mars and less the man of Mars. He was more of the planet Mars as Buitoni. Who came from somewhere, extra-terrestrial.

Host: Too much pasta is also not good.

Joos: No, but it was still better. He was no longer in top shape here. This is the prelude to the exit.

Host: You said 'impossible to compare', if you compare Maradona with a Messi or Ronaldo for example. The being encircled on midfield.

Joos: Look at what happens, Gerts nods. We said against each other... This is what Careca does consistently. That is the only way to go through the center, with the center forward who comes towards the ball, then immediately deviates, searches Maradona very often, and then you can maybe start something. But it is continuously through the center. This is Luca Fusi, again Careca with the deviation, Carnevale is also there who was stronger with his head. Here the attack goes to the outside, the second half they play better than the first. Again Careca setting up, immediately Carnevale posting-up, as if he is a basketball player near the hoop. Also here going to the outside, Crippa, good cross, but nobody there. De Napoli, he starts with a penetrating rush, head to the ground, until he encounters an opponent and is incorrectly stumbled. Okay, we found that then a terrific player, De Napoli, also was a fixture in the national side. Alemao, looking, and then has to go back, thinks 'oh yes, it sits too tight.'

Host: You can also wonder: would Maradona be as good or better in a less passionate or chaotic team? Where he is surrounded with greater talent.

Joos: Better.

Host: You think?

Joos: But this also fits well to him. Fits to Vila Fiorito, a boy who comes from the gutter, had to learn to fight and scuffle his way. And helped by the circumstances and helped by surrounding ruthless people, worked against by the circumstances, nevertheless pull through. Yes, this was a way he was also brought into play: Ciro Ferrara thinks 'there stands Maradona', as if he is Lukaku. Maradona jumps a bit - Messi would give it a bye. The nice is, or the strange is, Maradona doesn't complain. He carries it.

Verheyen: Moving to the field occupation, the spacing, the organization. That was terrible. A lot more chaotic and broken as the football we see today.

Host: And he also liked to use his hands very often. No other player has more penalized handballs in the World Cup as he had.

Verheyen: Yeah.

Host: There with the free kick they get it was a handball, with the penalty it was a handball.

Joos: Yes. The penalty was a mistake against Stuttgart. First the free kick, which he doesn't take himself, strange, as he almost always did that, and this.... this is *I think* not intentional but of course it keeps him in control of the ball and then shoots to the opponents arm from close range. And it is actually a technical mistake of Maradona, after the chest control the ball shouldn't go towards your arm.

Host: Well, he gets a pass for that, even if there is a whole preceding history with handballs.

Joos: Referee was named Germanakos. In Naples they're more superstitious than almost anywhere in the world, and the fact you have to go against a German team with a referee Germanakos... They made uncountable signs of the cross perhaps, but he helped Napoli quite a bit. Yet, it was also then, in a home match internationally...

Verheyen:... more was allowed and could get through. Not only the big calls but also the small things.

Joos: Then you had 55% more Gert, and if you are Maradona 60% more. That was different.

Verheyen: [nods]

Host: A whole bunch was close to a suspension for the 2nd leg. One yellow card and...

Joos: Eight Napoli players one card away.

Host: ... strangely this didn't withhold them from some daring challenges.

Joos: No because I bet they knew the mister Germanakos...

Verheyen: [laughs]

Joos:... wouldn't pull out the red card. This is right at the beginning of the game. Ouch, bad pass, Corradini thinks 'bang'. This is always a yellow, purely intentional. This is moving obstruction by Corradini. Gaudino who would later score. This is Luca Fusi... not nasty but pretty clear this.

Verheyen: This is an age where simply more is possible. Certainly in home matches, and also... you was permitted a 'first mistake'. You had the right to torpedo someone at the beginning of the game. Not to kick someone's ankle in two, but you could give the opponent a good clang.

Joos: This is also obstruction... Quite a miracle only substitute Crippa didn't see the 2nd game. This was European football. Barcelona - Anderlecht was a fair match. And this scene is remarkable: the chairman sits on the bench in his suit, and in front of him we see Luciano Moggi in the raincoat. Who later ended up at Torino - Scifo might have some nice anecdotes for you - and then used the full cocktail at Juventus. The Calciopoli scandal. He was station's chief in Civitavecchia, close to Rome. From there he found his way in calcio. Bought pretty much everything you can legally and illegally buy, it is said, and is now journalist [smile]. He is on the way down.

[some funny faces in the studio]

Host: Urrrm what you also often see is the backpass to the keeper, the kicking out by the goalkeeper.

Joos: That was noticeable. In the match with Anderlecht, chosen by Gert, I kept a tally, Anderlecht played in the first half just four passes back to the keeper. Which means you don't use the privilege. While you might say: we won at home with 2-0, we lock the match against Barcelona. You almost wonder: why did they introduce these rules, because it was not a problem. But now, and in this Italian tinted game, it was a problem. Yet some of these teams had a sense of honor I think. 'No, with 2-0 up we don't go playing 50 times back to the keeper. We want to play football'.

Host: The kicking out by the keepers.

Joos: Yes, the way they did. This is Giuliano Giulani. Look at how he kicks. Ice is on that ball. No direction or clear purpose it seems. Look at what Renica does here... you have a brain concussion. Giuliani is a heavy story. Because he... to keep it short... he was normally a faithful husband the story goes, and a good lad the team-mates spoke positively about, but he goes to the marriage of Maradona. His wife couldn't go. But the marriage of Maradona wasn't so clean, many things happened, and HIV was transmitted to him.

Host and Verheyen: Ouch.

Joos: He died a few years later. Very poignant and painful story, as there are a few more, such as the story of the suicidal Julio Alberto. Maradona unfortunately has also pressured and destroyed some lives of loyal team-mates, more than we think.

Host: Dragged into the mud of the grand master.

Joos: Mmmyes... Eventually you do it yourself of course. There is no immediate gun to your head in that sense. But...

Host: Yet your eyes keep twinkling when you see him.

Joos: Because of the brilliance right. Eventually we can strip it back to the ball and just the ball. I know Gert thinks you can't separate both aspects, because it has an effect on what happens on the field. There is I think no one...

Host: The genius on the field condones everything.

Joos: No, no, of course not. But you're allowed to enjoy the mastery of the ball and be faithful to your teenage hero. There is no one I think, who has been born with so much natural talent - that is not what I believe. That there is someone who equals that. Messi neither. But that Messi in a game, and others before him, is more efficient, decisive and determining, sometimes, is something else okay? More than Pelé, he always continued to realize where he came from, which was innate to him.

 

As an aside, there has been a looking back on the pivotal England 1986 game as well with Krol and Haan. There were some interesting (consensus) observations and opinions there. I'll paraphrase some of the non-cliches so to say:

• On the complaining of 'cheating': then it has to be mentioned Argentine players were elbowed and vice versa. With some sneaky, behind-the-back things taking place by both teams (not true for every big World Cup game). Whether handballing is then an additional level and layer, a different category...
• How does Argentina being widely seen as "the team to beat", before the game, match with the idea of an ordinary team? Well, that call is primarily influenced by what Pelé got to work with (and Puskas, Beckenbauer etc.) rather than the mid-tournament standing of the team. It's in relation to Pele his team, which then starts to conflate matters.
• It's mentioned the pitch was terrible, which makes the technical execution all the more impressive (John Barnes as well), and the heat, altitude just didn't suit the English approach of closing opponents down (rather than marking the opponent). They were missing the central midfield, with defenders on a yellow at the second goal.
• Well-known is the claim about England being still 'shocked' about the first goal, when the 2nd goal was made. Interestingly, also a 'technical' explanation is given. Namely, when you suddenly have to go towards a more pro-active approach and grow into the match, the distances between your players have to be right (until then, and after 90 minutes, England had less possession). That seems to be lacking, when suddenly forced to go onto the front foot and players not in tune with each other.
• Do luck and misfortune balance each other out over a longer period of time and a full career? Clearly and factually that's a misunderstanding, but in Maradona his case it possibly does.
• Krol regrets refusing his shirt in '79 (captaining FIFA XI and with Orange in Bern). Johnny Rep got the shirt, but Tahamata was 'officially' chosen as the man of the match. Rep later lost his shirt and doesn't know where it is now.

@PDG1978