Classic Game Club- Italy v. Brazil 1982 WC

Discussion in 'Soccer History' started by comme, Oct 16, 2008.

  1. kingkong1

    kingkong1 New Member

    Nov 12, 2007
    Rio, Brazil
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    It's useless trying to find scapegoats to the defeat.

    Even Cerezzo should be spared: the goal he conceded was not the decisive one (although dramatically contributed to the 3rd one).

    If Random Destiny exists it showed its face that afternoon.:cool:
     
  2. aguimarães

    aguimarães Member

    Apr 19, 2006
    Club:
    LD Alajuelense
    Not sure about Reinaldo, though Careca was. Brazil had a legendery midfield, but a poor keeper, no good strikers and defenders who spent most of their time playing offense. Still, they were the best team in the tournament besides Italy. In addition to beating West Germany in warm-up games they also thrashed

    Portugal
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjZVnI0wdQg"]YouTube- Amistoso 1982: Brasil 3x1 Portugal[/ame]

    France
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYN3GlHG8Yk"]YouTube- Amistoso 1981: Brasil 3x1 França[/ame]

    and England
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-gz0sUrAek"]YouTube- Amistoso 1981: Brasil 1x0 Inglaterra[/ame]

    three of those proving to be top teams in the upcoming Cup. It took both the Italians and several mistakes on Brazil´s part to snap that streak.
     
  3. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    It's not that hard to admit that Brazil had weak spots. But you have to look at it with neutral eyes. It doesn't have to be random destiny for us to lose games.

    Random destiny is the ball hitting the post and Carlos's back in the PK shootout in 86 against France.

    As much as you say that Brazilians are only happy with 1st place and everything else is failure, many also always try to find exterior factors for defeats and don't admit that the team has weaknesses.
     
  4. uamiranda

    uamiranda Member

    Jun 18, 2008
    Club:
    Vitoria Salvador
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    After the game ended, it's easy blame on Cerezo. I agree the of the three goals we conceeded, the 2nd is the least acceptable. But don't forget that right before the corner that originated Italy's 3rd goal, WE were at the semi's!

    Moreover, I don't think that after Falcão equalized the match, the players were still thinking of Cerezo's blunder. And the prove is that they mede another blunder in the 3rd goal.

    After all, if destiny played a role in that afternoon, that's cause brazilian players let it happen.
     
  5. ITALIA1982

    ITALIA1982 Member

    Jun 14, 2005
    Toronto
    Club:
    AC Milan
    I do not think destiny had any role in that game...if anything the score should have been 4-2 had Antongnani's goal counted, Italy took Brazil by surprise simple as that, this is why this game is considered the Best game ever...Brazil never expected to see the Azzurri going into the attack from the first minute till the end of the game, they expected Italy to bunker down and hit on the counter, instead Bearzot decided to test the weaknesses in Brazil's defence from the whistle and surprise Brazil with an attcking formation, that paid off instead of the catanaccio, and Brazil paid the price, simple as that...
    It is a game that teaches soccer tactics for generations to come, Cerezo and Junior cracked under pressure and Italy performed at its best with no weaknesses whatsoever that afternoon.
    The following lessons must be learned:
    1. Any team needing only a draw to advance is vulnerable.
    2. Surprise element is crucial, Italy changing their tactics from Catenaccio to Attack.
    3. Man marking Rossi especially after he scored the 2nd goal was vital.
    4. Exploiting any week link Junior and Cerezo and taking advantage of it.
    5. Italy had more will to win than Brazil did.
     
  6. kingkong1

    kingkong1 New Member

    Nov 12, 2007
    Rio, Brazil
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Agree with everything - in terms.

    Some points gotta be considered.

    First: the poor Italian performances in the group stage made us too over-confident.

    Italy's offensive attitude (more than a tactical choice in order to surprise Brazil) derived in my opinion from the pressure they felt the whole week before the game from their own press not only cuzz of their irrisory campaign so far but also in function of the tonitruous internal Serie A scandals that made the country the laughing stock of the tournament at that point.

    IMO it was more like an instinctive reaction than a cold tactical offensive posture (which in fact goes against the calcio's temperament).


    Out of pure rage Bearzot must have commanded his pupils:

    'Be what God wants, kids, it's now or never, unleash your dogs & alea jacta est!'...


    It's in that sense that I see that great game as a work of random destiny.

    And one needs talent to detect when destiny is going to take place.

    Talent to read the HOUR.

    That was Italy's stupendous virtue that day.

    Celito took me wrong: I'm not trying to detract Italy for that. On the contrary.;)
     
  7. aguimarães

    aguimarães Member

    Apr 19, 2006
    Club:
    LD Alajuelense
    This gets said a lot, but a big part of Italy´s game in 1982 was the counterattack. Against Argentina, Poland, and West Germany, all their goals (as brilliant as some were) came off of counters. It was still primarily defense first, with tough man-marking.
     
  8. kingkong1

    kingkong1 New Member

    Nov 12, 2007
    Rio, Brazil
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil

    I think we all agree from different points of view.

    You just give more weight to the word 'destiny' than I do.:D
     
  9. braine

    braine Member

    Feb 5, 2006
    Belgium
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    Sure they had more will coz they NEEDED to win,Brasil needed only a drawn.:rolleyes:

    It wasn't the goalkeeper (none of the 3Rossi goals he's to blame for),the defenders or the midfielders that cause the loss against Italy but the lack of a good striker !
    I stay by my point that the Brasilians really missed a qualitystriker,should Careca or Reinaldo at the spot of Serginho it could be a different kind of story..
    Remind that Brasil70 had also not a so great defense,but that didnt matter coz they scored more goals than the opponent anyway..
     
  10. kingkong1

    kingkong1 New Member

    Nov 12, 2007
    Rio, Brazil
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    See,

    None of you gets to an agreement.

    One says it was Italy's iron will, the other says it was the goalie, the other the defense, another one the midfield & finally we got to the striker - I say none of them but a conjugation of pitch & off-pitch factors.

    Thanks for giving me reason.

    That's what can be called 'Random Destiny', Celito, Uamiranda :D ...
     
  11. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    Well if there is always a good reason for failure or win then football would become less exciting would not it?
     
  12. braine

    braine Member

    Feb 5, 2006
    Belgium
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    you're right ! Football isn't lucky enough no exact mathematics and thats the good thing in these sport.
    Injuries and blunders are a part of the game.
    Italy just scored one goal more than Brasil that day in June and didn't stole the victory.
    A good thing is that it was't the referee to blame for the loss,coz loosing coz of misjudgement of the referee is REALLY frustating for the loosing team...
     
  13. Lockeroom

    Lockeroom Member

    Apr 11, 2008
    Serginho played better than Rossi in the WC until the match against Italy - yes , random destiny .....
     
  14. kingkong1

    kingkong1 New Member

    Nov 12, 2007
    Rio, Brazil
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Yup.

    More 'random destiny' than that, impossible :D ...
     
  15. kingkong1

    kingkong1 New Member

    Nov 12, 2007
    Rio, Brazil
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Absolutely.

    That's why when I talk about 'random destiny' I'm not speaking about something external to football.

    Football is the + exciting sport of all because it's the sport where the 'hasard' (French for 'fate') plays the strongest role.

    As I said, the great merit of Italy was not technical (in that aspects they were miles away from Brazil) but to count on the sagacity of Bearzot & his players who instinctively knew how to 'read' when Brazil got definitely & psychologically unbalanced by Cerezzo's blunder.

    And wise & masterfully took advantage of that.

    More or less what Uruguay did to Brazil in 1950.;)
     
  16. mattteo

    mattteo Member

    Jul 19, 2006
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    There is only one reason Italy won that day and went on to win the cup.

    They were the better team, and showed it.

    Brazil was on Italy's level only in the midfield department.
     
  17. kingkong1

    kingkong1 New Member

    Nov 12, 2007
    Rio, Brazil
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    And why didn't they show it before?...

    Italy was better, yes, but in the oportunism with which they dealt with that game.

    Sorry, Matteo but all you did (and it was a lot) was to take a ride in Cerezzo's blunder & win the Cup in the psychological aspect.

    Having beaten Brazil gave you morale & inspired fear in the adversaries.

    Destiny (random destiny) - and destiny favors the most attempt - catapulted you to the title.;)
     
  18. mattteo

    mattteo Member

    Jul 19, 2006
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy

    Because they didn't need to.

    Although the Argentina game already showed a vast improvement over the group stage form.

    Italy was better than Brazil in player and coach quality. Brazil had a world-class midfield, but lacked options and talent in other departments.

    By watching the match, you always get the feeling that Italy is going to win.

    And blunders even out, Italy's defense messed up badly on Falcao's goal, leaving him all alone at the edge of the box.

    Plus, you talk as if this victory was the highlight of the tournament....but in the final Italy beat a better team than Brazil.
     
  19. kingkong1

    kingkong1 New Member

    Nov 12, 2007
    Rio, Brazil
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    And I'm the fanatic here.:D
     
  20. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    huh? Must come from an Italian fan!

    The whole world knew Brazil was better team. Italy midfielders were so busy to defend and clear the balls out LOL ... what they could do besides?

    Rossi was Italy's saviour 3goals in 3 ONLY (freaking) chances of whole game

    You want more stats for your "better team" ?
    .........Play ... W... D....L ... GF....GA
    Italy....7.........4....3....0.....12.....6
    Brazil...5.........4.....0...1......15....6
     
  21. uamiranda

    uamiranda Member

    Jun 18, 2008
    Club:
    Vitoria Salvador
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    I agree Brazil could have a better striker, once Serginho wasn't the same technique level as the midfield. But, in fact, Brazil didn't "need" a quality striker. Remind that 7 players scored 15 goals in 5 games (Serginho scored 2 of them), which shows that Brazil was not dependent on a pure striker (a tendency already seen in pre-WC matches). I'd fully agree with you in that moment when Serginho runs ahead of Zico and shots wide, with his weakest foot, inside the penalty area.





    Yup...And that almost cost you the spot in the 2nd stage...

    In that match, yes. I'd say that Italy figured out how to take advantage of Brazil's deficiencies.

    Brazil's defense messed up as well, in the corner that originated Italy's 3rd goal...





    I keep on thinking that Cerezo's blunder was dead and gone after Falcão scored for Brazil, which gave them confidence again... Or do you think in that 3rd goal corner Brazilian players were still thinking of it? IMO, the fact is that Brazil wasn't defensively careful enough that day (due to "destiny", style of play, football culture, whatever...) and Italy took advantage of it. Merits for them.
     
  22. uamiranda

    uamiranda Member

    Jun 18, 2008
    Club:
    Vitoria Salvador
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Not only stats show that... We can just re-watch the matches and see. But I must conceed that each one can have a different definition for the word better, especially in football, a so 'personal taste' matter. But in this case, almost the whole world had the same 'personal taste'... :)
     
  23. aguimarães

    aguimarães Member

    Apr 19, 2006
    Club:
    LD Alajuelense
    It was the highlight of the tournament. Brazil beat (and thoroughly dominated) England, France, and Germany right before the Cup began. I posted highlight videos on the previous pages. The Germans lost to Algeria, fixed the game against Austria to advance, failed to beat England, and shouldn´t have reached the penalty stage with France.
     
  24. kingkong1

    kingkong1 New Member

    Nov 12, 2007
    Rio, Brazil
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Nonetheless Italy's victory was absolutely just.

    And their great merit - I insist - was to have 'read the hour' more thoroughly than anybody else.

    A typical 'Boot' win.

    Caesar crossing the Rubicon with an inferior army & conquering Rome.

    Alea jacta est! :) ...

    (remember that embedded in the Latin expression above we have the word 'alea' which means 'dice thrown...at random'):D

    [​IMG]
     
  25. braine

    braine Member

    Feb 5, 2006
    Belgium
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    You're right,but with an extra real goalgetter they would be better,wouldn't they ?
    Serginho didn't even create chances for others...






    I fully agree without you !
    the moment Falcao scores all what happen before is forgotten...
     

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