There are plenty of "sports" people in the world that do not seem to have much general intelligence and many of them were great for their sport and/or a particular team. There are Pele, Lombardy, Jordan, Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb, Mohamad Ali and I could go on and on. The fact that they are good/great players or coaches or fans does not make them "smart." It simply makes them famous, or infamous. I do NOT "hate" Donavan, I just think he was an average (maybe above average) soccer player that played for a team that was WAY below average in most positions. He made a HUGE mistake running away from Europe when things got difficult. He basically ran home to mommy to avoid having to actually produce against good teams. That shows poor decision making and that one trait permeated his entire career. But he was a lot better than the rest of his team. And that also is part of the problem. I recognize his contributions to USA soccer. Unfortunately part of that contribution was a poor recovery rate. He meandered back to an onside position rather than running and presenting a much quicker opportunity for a quick counter. But, let's drop this as by now everyone knows how each of us feels about the problem and I feel that pretty much ends the debate. Of course, since I posted the first post in this side track of the topic, you get one more but I have just posted my last post in this thread about Donavan, it is just not important Thanks for disagreeing with me. It forces me to think about my position(s) just in case I might be wrong.
Fair enough… In the end, I’d love to see the team accomplish something special in 2026. I think we’re all looking for a breakthrough performance with this generation. I’d love for Pulisic to put his definitive stamp on the team then.
Why would production for a national team- which has incredible variation of influencing factors, never mind is a snapshot compared to the club environment- be any kind of determining factor? That’s not how talent evaluation works. There isn’t a scout out there worth their salt who weighs NT performance near the top of the criteria in building a player profile and judging quality.
Your understanding of Donovan's playing career is extremely flawed and incomplete. I think that Pulisic is in most respects a better player now than Donovan was, and is now hitting a new high for American players, but it was definitely not night and day, and Donovan didn't "have" to come "running back" to play in the US. And not hustling? Oh, my dear, you really got it wrong. Just flat-out wrong.
I thought we were talking about the USMNT, so what does club career (even ignoring that Donovan was pretty good in two loans to Everton and in MLS where he won lots of trophies and finished as the all time goals and assists leader) have to do with it? What is this definition of selfish where the player with the most assists in USMNT and MLS history is considered "too selfish"?
This is a stupid internet argument as no-one is going to change their mind. I was just comparing Pulisic's and Dempsey's goal contributions in the top leagues. Pulisic - Dortmund, Chelsea, Milan 231 appearances, 72 goals & assists Dempsey - Fulham, Tottenham 213 appearances, 75 goals & assists Different players of course but imagine what Deuce might have done had he gone to Europe rather than Furman.
Okay so we have players who have played multiple seasons worth of games against similar opponents. Both facing similar environmental factors creating a common reference point. So it’s not a snapshot, it’s actually 200+ games over which I am comfortable reaching a conclusion of, “pretty close when it comes to end product”. Scouts can’t wait for a player to play 50+ national team matches and have the more voluminous and recent club data to go off of. When scouting third tier leagues teams are absolutely influenced by international play.
The amount of fluctuation in the international game is wild. The spectrum from regional lightweights to Confed Cup/WC opponents is massive. Then you get into eras- game has changed significantly from 00’s to today, coaches, system/setup, roster makeup, strength of midfield, flank play, striker impact, etc, etc. Can take it further to team chance creation, possession zones, for a winger- touches in the 18, transition opportunity #’s. Also importantly, defensive coverage faced, multiple markers, attention absorbed from others across the attack. Which of course is near impossible to account for and is why the eye test judging situational exploits is what most scouts lean on. Not to mention you’re comparing a career body of work vs someone just entering their prime. It’s akin to comparing Jordan’s career stats vs Kobe’s at 25. Never mind as alluded to above, the coaching, systems, teammates, pace, changes in physicality, defenses, etc.
Not a surprising reaction from someone who has always been a complete prick trying to get attention Former Chelsea and Scotland midfielder Craig Burley slams Christian Pulisic for the penalty debacle 😳“How weak do you have to be? Christian Pulisic, a U.S. international footballer, to stand aside and let two different players to take a penalty, how weak are you?”“I’m… pic.twitter.com/o8knwHVEkB— GOLZ TV (@golz_tv) October 9, 2024
I agree with your post, but he has a legit point of view. I bet CP will be a bit more assertive next time.
He's a guy with a take for the sake of commerce, much like Lalas. Except that Lalas is actually more likable, and unlike Burley, he's at least "ours," and is genuinely on "our" side, even if he has to be a clown with a stupid hot take about it.
I did not make an ultimate career spanning forward looking judgement. All I’ve done is compare what each has done to this point. I’m not giving people too much credit by just posting the facts without including all the obvious context am I? When making cross era comparisons the baseline is to compare how each player did against their peers. As far as fluctuations go that’s what the very large sample size is for. Pulisic has faced slightly worse opponents and scored and assisted, on average, against opponents ranked about 20 places lower. Donovan kind of played across eras but most of his production came when he was the defensive focal point of our opponents after they knew to deny us space to counter. Donovan averaged .91 G+A/90 in the 2014 cycle (where I remember a talking point being how he and Clint weren’t always in camp with each other).
Even when Lalas is being obtuse, his huge heart for US Soccer is on full display. The guy loves it. Both mens and womens teams, he’s all about it. He’s a foundational figure for the sport in our country, has dedicated his adult life to the growth and andvancement of the sport here, and deserves all the leeway he wants. Burley? Zero latitude.
And by per90, which is the only way to make this comparison, CP is comfortably clear. While still in his prime, which means he's going to blow him away pretty quickly here. Because it's not even close, CP is miles beyond Dempsey as a footballer.
In terms of peak sustained level I don’t agree. I think CP is well ahead of Dempsey’s age curve but, if he maintains his level, this will be the first full season where he surpasses Clint.