Chivas Tryout

Discussion in 'MLS: General' started by TheMutts, Nov 11, 2003.

  1. TheMutts

    TheMutts New Member

    May 19, 2002
    MLS expansion team Chivas USA will begin their player recruitment program in December, according to Chivas' billionaire owner Jorge Vergara.
    In a press conference at the Beverly Hills Hotel, Vergara announced that in Houston, Texas from December 4-7 and in Los Angeles, California from December 11-14, Chivas will hold open try-outs for perspective players. Vergara has previously noted that only players of Hispanic decent will be eligible, and he again backed that up at the conference.

    copyright © Sky Sports
    "We are inviting all Mexicans born in the United States, or the sons of Mexicans who were born in the US who speak Spanish because the majority of the team will be made up of Spanish speaking players," Vergara said in Los Angeles.

    Players from 10 to 24 years old will be broken up into five groups based on their ages. The first group will be made up of 10-12 year olds followed by 13-14 year olds. The third group will have 15-17 year olds, the fourth 18-21 year olds and the fifth 22-24 year olds.

    Vergara also said that the organization has until November 22nd, the day before MLS Cup 2003 to announce in which city that Chivas-USA will play. San Diego is favourite, but as of last night, the city says no deal has been completed.

    It continues to be rumoured that Chivas may play in the Home Depot Centre. The other option would be to play in another Los Angeles stadium, and pay AEG compensation for playing in their territory.

    As far as salaries are concerned, Vergara said that Chivas (Mexico) has a minimum salary of 50,000 pesos, a house and car. The idea is for Chivas-USA to be comparable while working inside the salary rules of MLS.

    The player search has begun and the search for a coach for Chivas-USA is also underway. "We have many options and are looking for someone equal to the Chivas coach in Mexico.

    Chivas-USA are set to begin play in MLS in the 2005 season.

    I say its fcukin bull *#*#*#*#
    If i lived in houston or san diego i would go, and i am not hispanic
  2. JMMUSA8

    JMMUSA8 New Member

    Nov 3, 2001
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Go anyway. If they don't let you tryout you can sue them. I got a feeling alot of groups will be sueing Chivas and MLS.
  3. Poor translation.

    "Estamos invitando a todos los mexicanos nacidos en Estados Unidos o a los hijos de mexicanos nacidos en Estados Unidos y todos los que hablen español para que se integren, porque el equipo va a ser conformado en su mayoría por hispanoparlantes", aclaró."

    We are inviting all mexicans or sons of mexicans and everyone who speaks spanish (like Donovan), because the the majority of the team (not all) will be made up of Spanish speaking players.
  4. SpongeBobSquarePants

    Jun 18, 2003
    Silver Spring
    Even with that translation it makes it pretty easy to win a civil case against him.
  5. SCBozeman

    SCBozeman Member

    Jun 3, 2001
    St. Louis
    What I know about civil rights employment eye is pretty small, but this is a try out. He's not saying a non-Spanish speaker will not be eligible to be hired. In fact, the translation says non-Spanish speakers will be party of the team.
  6. voros

    voros Member

    Jun 7, 2002
    Parts Unknown
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Anybody know if the tryouts will be open to the public to watch. I'd love to catch this in LA. I'm big on spectacle and this looks like it's going to be one. :)
  7. SpongeBobSquarePants

    Jun 18, 2003
    Silver Spring
    I'm not an attorney, but I play one on the internet. If you have a procedure of hiring people and it, purposely or inadvertently, denies people a chance at their job because of their race you can be in trouble. Let's say I will only let people play who scored 1300 or higher on their SATs and that team ended up with only one black player. I didn't intentionally discrimination against blacks, but the result was the same. Blacks, generally, don't score aa well as whites on SATs and that is why the team came out majority white.

    Now, let's say this team ends up majority Spanish speaking. On that last day of tryouts there are two players of equal strength, one hispanic, Spanish-speaker and one white, non-Spanish speaker. They cut the guy who doesn't speak Spanish. Believe me, Johnnie Cochran will be a-calling.
  8. Thomas Flannigan

    Feb 26, 2001
    You know the old song, don't you? "No Irish Need Apply"
  9. Stevedm

    Stevedm Red Card

    Jan 19, 2000
    Yeah alot of liberal hebrew ACLU loving lawyers!!! Hell man the least Al Qaeda could have done right is bomb Hollywood and LA. The UN would have nominated him the Noble peace price rigth alonq with the Pope!!
  10. ElJefe

    ElJefe Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 16, 1999
    Colorful Colorado
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Actually, for most jobs, while it is illegal to require that applicants have a particular ethnicity or race, it is NOT illegal to require that applicants speak a certain language as long as the employer can prove that that language requirement is necessary for that particular job.

    So, for example, if a cable company wants to hire somebody for its Hispanic marketing department, it can require that applicants must be able to speak Spanish. And if you don't speak any English, there are plenty of jobs in this country that you won't be able to get. (Which is a big reason why the biggest advertisers on Univision and Telemundo are English-language courses.)

    So by allowing all Spanish-speaking people, regardless of race, to try out, I think that Chivas' try-outs might be legal. But I'm not a lawyer, I just play one on the Internet.

    In any case, I think that what they're doing isn't terribly bright from a soccer perspective. After all, there are plenty of good players in this country who don't speak a lick of Spanish.
  11. Femfa

    Femfa New Member

    Jun 3, 2002
    Los Angeles
    Did Steve just go to a red card on that post?

    I'm not sure it's any different than two say, secretaries who type the same WPM, but one also speaks Spanish. You want to appeal to a Spanish-speaking public, so you hire her.

    It can't be discriminatory if it's a learned skill - meaning if you bothered to learn the language, you would have that element in your favor. Because players are partly entertainers, and that means being able to communicate with the Spanish press, etc.
  12. Deleted USer

    Deleted USer Member+

    Jan 7, 2001
    True. There is selective enforcement.

    Vergara since day one has stated thathe wants to appeal to the hispanic community in the US. THe race card wont hold. Last time i checked, Hispanics (American Hispanics) come in all flavors.

    Its like the Hooters case. Even though Hooters "discriminates" from hiring male servers, they are able to get away with it because Hooters markets to a certain demographic. But they dont "discriminate" in a malicious manner.

    I see the same prinicple there. The one thing that most hispanics have in common is the language and that is what he wants. He wants to communicate with them in thier native language.

    Being bilingual or multilingual is becoming a necesity and Americans are getting left behind in that department. I just had 2 firends who finished thier degrees (Engineering) and both applied to the same companies. Well, the one who got the job happens to be bilingual. And he is actually overseas right now.

    Even if its taken to court, i think the judge will be some what hesitant. I also wouldnt expect seeing politicians trying to shut them down. They are the fastest growing minority in the US and are potential "votes". I wouldnt be surprised if some politicians and investors jump on ship because of the potential it has. You saw the same thing when they brought Spanish TV to the US. Many jumped ship when they saw the market was there and now many depend on that market. I remember when i came to the US, most of the commercials were american but dubbed in Spanish. Now, you see spanish commercials made in the US. You dont see that that effect with other "minorities" in the US where they are catered to in thier native language.
  13. kpaulson

    kpaulson New Member

    Jun 16, 2000
    Washington DC

    Nope. That's not quite right. Our discrimination law requires intent. In your example, no one would even win a discrimination suit against you unless you came out and said that the reason you used that specific criteria was to exclude black folks.

    However, you're entirely right about the result. BUT you can legitimately use language as a qualification for some jobs. However, you can NEVER use it as a pretext for discrimination. And that is why Johnnie Cochran would be calling.

    RDL's point is neither here nor there. It doesn't matter that latino isn't a racial category. Discriminating on national origin is on par and would certainly be applicable in this case.

    Anyone who tells you that MLS would or wouldn't win in any potential litigation isn't a lawyer and is full of it-- BUT with the right plaintiff, everything is in place to create a solid enough case to cost MLS more money in legal expenses than it can afford.
  14. Femfa

    Femfa New Member

    Jun 3, 2002
    Los Angeles
    Ok, if latino isn't a racial category - speaking spanish is?

    So if I own a factory with many Hispanic workers, and I'm looking for someone who can manage the plant and talk to them - I'm discriminating?

    Doesn't wash.
  15. spejic

    spejic Cautionary example

    Mar 1, 1999
    San Rafael, CA
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Important topics brought up by the article no one is talking about:

    1) They are trying out kids as young as 10. Does this mean they are going to fund (multiple?) feeder teams as well? Are they going to play in PDL, A-League or other national leagues?

    2) They are instituting their own minimum salary. It means they won't have as much to give the stars, unless they do some under-the-table deals.

    3) Their location. They don't have alot of time left to pick.

    4) They want a big-name coach. Where are they going to find one? Do they really expect to make money when every step (including the press conference at Beverly Hills Hotel) is done without concern for cost?
  16. ThreeApples

    ThreeApples Member+

    Jul 28, 1999
    Smurf Village
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    50,000 pesos = $4,567. Though I don't know if that's per year, per month, or what.
  17. SpongeBobSquarePants

    Jun 18, 2003
    Silver Spring
    Only if you decide you will only hire an Hispanic.
  18. Per Quincena, every 15 days.
  19. uclacarlos

    uclacarlos Member+

    Aug 10, 2003
    east coast
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    nah, they'll cut the Spanish speaker and employ him full-time as a frickin' translator b/c the Anglophone press is just frickin' ignorant sometimes when it comes to these translations... ;)
  20. kpaulson

    kpaulson New Member

    Jun 16, 2000
    Washington DC
    No. It's actually pretty simple. You can use a language as an occupational qualification (if it makes sense) even if there is a discriminatory effect. But you can't use it as a pretext for discrimination.

    In your example, you need a manager who speaks Spanish. That's fine. But you run into trouble where the language requirement isn't really necessary for the job and there's reason to believe you chose that requirement for racial reasons.
  21. rocketeer22

    rocketeer22 Member+

    Apr 11, 2000
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Wait...isn't the first legal discrimination whether or not the player is a national? Secondly, with MLS being single-entity, wouldn't someone have to prove that the corporation hasn't hired any other players with a mix of ethnic origin.
  22. CyphaPSU

    CyphaPSU Member+

    Mar 16, 2003
    Not Far
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm not sure what exactly counts as an under-the-table deal, but the fact that Chivas guarantees that minimum salary PLUS a house and a car--would the house and the car count as under-the-table and not a part of the salary??

    So perhaps Chivas could provide its 'star' players with larger houses and more expensive cars if they don't count towards the salary cap.
  23. kpaulson

    kpaulson New Member

    Jun 16, 2000
    Washington DC
    Absolutely. "Discrmination" based on nationality is fine-- but that's different from discriminating on the basis of national origin. You couldn't discriminate against an Irish-American because he (or his parents) were originally from Ireland.

    Now, you can argue that if Chivas hires Jared Borghetti (white Italian-Mexican), they're not discriminating against whites. But that's still not good enough because you'll still have national origin (really a proxy for ethnicity) to contend with.

    No. You can do the analysis at every level/division of the corporation.
  24. kpaulson

    kpaulson New Member

    Jun 16, 2000
    Washington DC
    It's certainly under the table but there's a precedent in MLS. In the early years, cars were bought for a number of players. Lothar got a phat apartment.

    However, that's not a precedent I want to see followed. For all the hysteria about other aspects of Chivas USA, playing around with the salary cap is probably the one real danger to the league. (Not that I think there's much of a chance that it'll happen).
  25. divingheader

    divingheader Member

    Nov 10, 2001
    St John, NB, Canada
    Newcastle United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There are a lot of points made in this thread. So far, no lawyers have spoken up. There have to be some lawyer-type soccer fans about, so why no opinions? Here's a few more non-lawyer opinions...

    Vergara has a few lawyers on staff, you gotta figure. This has had to pass thru them, you gotta figure. They think it's ok, again, you gotta figure...

    Vergara invited americans to his tryout, not mexicans, not Ukrainians, not Canadians. He has not discriminated at all based on national origin, merely announced tryouts for players who fall within MLS rules as being able to play.

    Vergara's statements were made in spanish. It makes perfect sense that he invited mexican nationals, their sons and other spanish speakers. The announcement, by being in spanish, was targeted at spanish speakers and likely spanish speakers. An announcement targeted at anglophones and others would have been made in the appropriatte language. Has anyone in SD or Houston seen posters or other advertisements for these tryouts? What languages are they in?

    Isn't discrimination in favor of a minority called affirmative action and the legal policy of the USA?

    Hispanics are not a race. They are an ethinic group, likely to disapper into the american mix in the next 100 years. Much like the italian and polish communities have. Thier children learn the new lands language and pretty soon you have to check their last names to know if you want to hate them or not. Hispanics are (mostly) white. Many mexican hispanics are almost purely european heritage. The spanish, the french, and the americans tromped thru there. Would you consider the Spanish 'white'? They are about as mixed as it can get there at the bottom (geographically) of Europe.

    MLS in its early years made an effort to postion players where their ethnic backgrounds would appeal to the minority/ethnic/immigrant communities. This is not discrimination, this is a marketing strategy. It does not always make for great soccer, but thats not the goal of that particular decision. MLS continues this practice today, isn't that right Mr Quintanilla?

    Vergara says he is working within the MLS guidelines for salary structure. Why don't you expect he is also working within the guidelines for national origin. If national origin were an problem someone would have sued MLS over it long before now. Sport doesn't strictly follow the rules all other businesses do.

    This whole thing looks like smoke with only a very little fire, and that coming off the asses of those burning up about a 'mexican' team in MLS. Get over it.

    Consider this: A chinese gentleman immigrates to Miami from Hong Kong, and opens a McDonalds, which he manages. This restaurant is not a chinese restaurant. This restaurant is not a cuban restaurant. This restaurant is a McDonalds, it serves Big Macs and fries. It may alos serve something with local flavor (they sell poutine up here - fries with gravy and cheese), but its a McDs. Chivas USA will be an american MLS soccer team. When two guys speak spanish to each other in the club house it will be no different than Quintanilla speaking to Quaranta ot Etcheverry.

    Was Stevedm kidding or what? He had to be making a point by taking the extreme position he did, that can't be what he thinks. Was the red card due to poor judgement (Stevedm's, not the mod) and insensitivity (likewise)? If he was trying to make a point, although I can't see what it is, he should be allowed back into the discussion.
    If only to explain what the hell he was trying to get at.

    Go ahead, I'm open for business, shoot me full of holes if you can.

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