Chivas in MLS: good or bad

Discussion in 'Archives: CD Chivas USA' started by pc4th, Oct 28, 2003.

  1. pc4th

    pc4th New Member

    Jun 14, 2003
    North Poll
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    As of today, October 28, 2003. These are the most accurate details pertaining the Chivas expansion: (bold=quote from article)

    -Chivas and MLS agree in principal
    -City for the team is still undetermined, but likely to be San Diego.
    -MLS has expressed concern about playing soccer in Qualcomm Stadium, home of the Chargers. Garber called Qualcomm "a temporary solution,'' and said a new team probably would play there while officials work on a deal for a soccer-only facility.
    -Chivas probably will not operate until 2005
    -The league would not allow the new Chivas team to sign more Mexican players than current rules allow.
    -Chivas will probably have an Hispanic 'flare' (according to Garber) than a typical MLS team, say the Galaxy.

    http://soccernet.espn.go.com/headlinenews?id=281694&cc=5901

    So that is the lastest news (yesterday actually, with pretty good source, ESPN, and with comment from Garber and Vergera.) instead of the normal rumors from various news sourse from the last few weeks.

    So with the poll, do your voting power, and if possible discuss why Chivas is a good idea, or Chivas is a bad idea.

    I vote good because
    -new owner with $$$
    -could attract more Mexican Americans to MLS
    -biggest rivalry (just take a look at the hatred people been writing for the past few days)
    -possible development of Hispanic American soccer players in the US that MLS do not have the opportunity to look at. (Vergera mentioned 'tryouts' in several cities)
    -possible increase in attendance when Chivas comes to town (ex. Team MLS A vs. Team MLS B, or Team MLS A vs. Chivas....which one would bring more people to the stands)
    -professional soccer experiences, business or otherwise (Vergera or Kraft, take your pick)
    -more Hispanic media toward MLS
     
  2. pc4th

    pc4th New Member

    Jun 14, 2003
    North Poll
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    For the 3 that voted 'BAD' please educate us on why.

    What is wrong with a team in which the majority is Hispanic Americans?
    -See the Florida Marlins roster (the majority are Hispanics)
    -See the roster of any NBA team (the majority are African Americans_ and a lot of time the 5 starters for each team are all African Americans)

    The reasons that people has been giving thus far AGAINST CHivas is that
    -MLS is our league, our own identity.
    -Don't want MLS to be a farm-league to MFL (explain how is this going to be possible? IF Chivas is a team in MLS, they will send their players to the Chivas in Mexico? ) the farm-league argument just doesn't cut it. In many respects, MLS will lose 10 more times the players to Europe than to MFL.

    Come on. Educate us on how Chivas is bad.
    I am not saying you are wrong, but give us some reasons so we can 'think' into it and maybe buy your argument. Right now, I am not convinced.
     
  3. galperin

    galperin Member

    Feb 1, 2001
    Maineville, OH
    Bad, Bad, and more Bad.

    1. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. It IS OUR league. Mexicans have their MFL. They can stay there.
    2. Vergara's crap about players moving back and forth...very difficult to figure out how that might work contractually speaking. Personally , I think he's full of shite regarding this.
    3. It is racist. Can you imagine the uproar if someone bought a team and said, I am going to make this organization all white? We want to have an all-white flair to our organization? People would burn the place down.
    4. If they figure out a way to have players move back and forth between Chivas and Chivas USA, you will have the beginnings of MFL division B. Other MFL teams may want to do it as well. Club America is already said to be interested in buying a franchise. That would be horrible for American soccer and for MLS.

    This is what I came up with off the top of my head. If I had the time, I'm sure I could come up with other reasons as well.
     
  4. Sempuukyaku

    Sempuukyaku Member+

    Apr 30, 2002
    Seattle, WA
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Couldn't agree more with any of your points. I can't believe that people are willing to let foreign companies come into MLS to dump their "lower division" teams onto us. If we're to become a world-class league, then we must do it on our own and show to the rest of the world that we are not some commodity league to throw your crap into.

    And the example of having all black players on an NBA team makes NO SENSE WHATSOEVER. Do any NBA teams say "Because you're white, you can't tryout for the team. Only blacks can"??? Of course not. That's what Chivas would be doing in
    San Diego. It's not only prejudiced but it's also divisive, as hispanics new to the league will only support Chivas, and also exclusive because this team will draw from and target the hispanic market..NONE OTHERS. Is that what you guys want? Let's please think from all angles before being all gung-ho about this.
     
  5. pc4th

    pc4th New Member

    Jun 14, 2003
    North Poll
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Are you sure that is what Chivas would be doing in San Diego? Give me a link to where Garber said that only Mexican or Hispanics will be allow on the team.

    What he said is that Chivas will have a Hispanic or Mexican flare. The Galaxy is a team that has a Hispanic/Mexican flare right now in MLS, but Chivas will be much more so. Garber also stated that Chivas will follow MLS rules. What more do you need?

    GIVE ME A LINK WHERE THE COMMISSIONER OF MLS SAID THAT CHIVAS WILL BE ALL HISPANICS, then I would support your argument.

    For example, Garber on the press conference at MLS Cup 2003 announce that Chivas will have all-Hispanics players, then it is official. Right now, whatever you heard are just rumors. Try and read the ESPN story again where Garber specifically stated that Chivas will follow MLS rules and on other news source, he said that Chivas will have a Hispanic flare. He did not say anything about Chivas having an all-Hispanic team.
     
  6. pc4th

    pc4th New Member

    Jun 14, 2003
    North Poll
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Bad, Bad, and more Bad.

    1. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. It IS OUR league. Mexicans have their MFL. They can stay there.


    -I am glad you feel that way, but others feel that with the addition of Chivas into MLS, MLS can grow faster, get the necessary money to build SSS and most importantly attract the Latinos whose favorite sport is soccer but been ignoring MLS thus far. And trust me, MLS need them in order to grow. Otherwise, attendance and TV rating would be stagnant. IF Man U can bring the Eurosnobs to fill 70 K stadium, Chivas-brand can attract those that would otherwise be ignoring MLS.

    2. Vergara's crap about players moving back and forth...very difficult to figure out how that might work contractually speaking. Personally , I think he's full of shite regarding this.
    See it to believe it. Right now, it is just an idea that would be very hard to materialize. MLS signs all the players, not Chivas. If MLS doesn't want its players to go to MFL to play when they are under MLS contract, then it won't happen.

    3. It is racist. Can you imagine the uproar if someone bought a team and said, I am going to make this organization all white? We want to have an all-white flair to our organization? People would burn the place down.
    Saying is one thing, doing is another. Thus far, all I get is that Chivas want to have a team that is majority made up of Hispanics. The Florida Marlins is majority Hispanics. Nobody is complaining. Most NBA team has majority African Americans, no body is complaining. IF Chivas has majority Hispanics, why would you complain? If the LA Galaxy right now add some more Hispanic American players to its roster to become majority Hispanics, would you complain?

    4. If they figure out a way to have players move back and forth between Chivas and Chivas USA, you will have the beginnings of MFL division B. Other MFL teams may want to do it as well. Club America is already said to be interested in buying a franchise. That would be horrible for American soccer and for MLS.

    IF IF IF. and the second point is MLS = MFL division B just because Chivas could move players between Chivas and Chivas USA? Explain to all how is this possible? HOW COULD CHIVAS MOVE ITS PLAYERS WHEN MLS CONTROL ALL THE PLAYERS CONTRACT?

    THE ONLY WAY IT IS possible for MLS players moving into MFL is that the player is sold in a transfer like MLS selling Tim Howard to Man U, or the player contract run out and they don't want to sign with MLS but instead wanting to sign with MFL. And the only possible way for MFL players to move into MLS is that MLS sign them or get them through a transfer.

    FARM TEAM ONLY HAPPEN where the BIGGER CLUB OWN THE SMALLER CLUB thus have access to its players if the players are good enough to move up.

    HOW CAN THIS HAPPEN WITH CHIVAS USA? when MLS control all the contracts?

    IF St. phil, Lamar Hunt (whose control like 80% of the votes) do not want player X to transfer to MFL, it would not happen. IF they do not want Tim Howard to transfer to Man U, it would not happpen either. Tim would have to wait until his contract run out then sign with Man U.

    Another way to look at this 'farm team' thing is this.

    Imagine 5 years from now, Chivas San Diego or whatever has player Z who is very very very talented. Vergera wants that player to play for his 'bigger team'. How can he get player Z to MFL Chivas?
    3 ways:

    1) wait for player Z contract to run out, then sign him. (EXAMPLE: Carlos Bocanegra, he will move to Europe after this season if he get a good offer. His current MLS contract will run out as of Jan 1, 2004. It is possible that he will stay with MLS if the money is good enough)

    2) MLS sold player Z through a transfer. This only happen when MLS board of governors agree to it.
    (Example, TIM HOWARD)

    3) a LOAN (which is also have to be agree by the MLS BOARD of GOVERNORS) If St. Phil/Hunt says no, no loan.

    In case 2 and 3, MLS will get money if they sell the player or loan the player. If the deal is bad, they won't sell/loan. Remember Clint Mathis? MLS reject the offer a few years ago
     
  7. uclacarlos

    uclacarlos Member+

    Aug 10, 2003
    east coast
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    Yeah! It's about time that somebody tells St. Phil (should we even call him that? He is, after all A FOREIGNER!!) to take his Austrian $$ and take ANY desire to have MLS be A FARM league for the AUSTRALIAN league!! And he can take his Home Depot Center w/ him! The foreign owned HDC is the absolute worst thing for American soccer. THIS IS OUR SPORT PPL, not some f'ing KIWI's! Just b/c New Zealand has a team in the South African league doesn't mean that Zimbabwe has to except a idiot to play on the Kashmir National Team! Theirs' plenty of room in the Pakistani league on the Indian side of Kashmir.
     
  8. uclacarlos

    uclacarlos Member+

    Aug 10, 2003
    east coast
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    Last I checked, there were 20+ million Mexicans residing in the US. Whereas they can watch MFL on t.v. (and they do, b/c Mexicans actually watch soccer, quite a novel concept in this country), they cannot be complete consumers of the sport here.

    US Mexicans do NOT have MFL outside of t.v.

    Chivas USA absolutely will bring Mexicans into the stadias, some out of curiosity, some in favor of Chivas, some opposed passionately. It will also bring in even more Central Americans, most of whom will oppose chivas. They will also get press, press, press on Spanish language print and broadcast outlets.

    This is all good, good, good.

    Call a spade a spade: so much of the anti-Chivas rhetoric is eerily xenophobic and laughably ignorant, reductionist thinking from simpletons. There are several ppl that have posted quite articulate, cogent responses that state the cons of Chivas USA. To them, thank you for your contributions. To the Galperins and Sempuukyakus of the world, God help humanity...
     
  9. Sempuukyaku

    Sempuukyaku Member+

    Apr 30, 2002
    Seattle, WA
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    *#*#*#*#*# you *#*#*#*#*#*#*#! If you have to resort to personal attacks to get your point across then you can go to hell. I've been vehemently opposed to Chivas USA yet I haven't ONCE attacked anyone here personally in getting my points across. I'm opposed to Chivas, and I think my points and reasoning are sound, period!
     
  10. river

    river Member

    Aug 12, 2001
    Cooper City
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    GOOD! GOOD! GOOD!

    Reason; The USA has proved again and again that they can not build a solid soccer league by themselves.

    KUDOS to Viagra and Mexico for being the 1st

    I WELCOME other countries like England, Spain , Argentina and Brazil and others to join MLS and make this league more interesting for ALL AMERICANS and the world to enjoy.

    $$$ talks!
     
  11. uclacarlos

    uclacarlos Member+

    Aug 10, 2003
    east coast
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    Sorry for the personal attack, but your statement reaked of being underinformed and not well thought out:

    My initial post took issue w/ the whole "foreign company" investment. In case you missed the joke, MLS already quite a bit of "foreign" investment.

    Chivas USA absolutely will not be a "lower division" team for Chivas Guadalajara. I also don't see what's wrong w/ somebody "dumping" millions of dollars to support soccer in this country, to take a hit every single year b/c MLS is not financially solvent yet. So, apart from normal operating costs, start-up costs, new STADIUM costs, you have to cover for the unprofitable American franchises. It's a hell of a lot cheaper to buy a 2nd division Mexican team and use it as your "farm team".

    20+ million Mexicans live in the US. They contribute so much to Mexico's economy that the $$ they send back to Mexico constitutes the nation's 2nd largest industry, ahead of OIL!

    This is an untapped market for MLS. Chivas represents a bold move to capitalize on this group.
     
  12. The Voice of Reason!

    Jan 6, 2002
    Wethersfield CT
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Re: Chivas in MLS: good or bad

    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by uclacarlos

    Call a spade a spade: so much of the anti-Chivas rhetoric is eerily xenophobic and laughably ignorant, reductionist thinking from simpletons. There are several ppl that have posted quite articulate, cogent responses that state the cons of Chivas USA. To them, thank you for your contributions. To the Galperins and Sempuukyakus of the world, God help humanity...
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    UCLA Carlos, I am decidedly more pro Chivas USA than SEMP here, but he does have valid points. Also you are almost a bit too fanatical. Save your fanatics till the team exists. At that point it is a good and healthy thing. But climbing a montain screaming racist and xenophobe does not make your cause a sympothetic one.

    I think Chivas will be good for the league. what I think is bad is the way the powers at be are announcing things. If Chivas just announced they are coming to MLS and stated that they were going to have a decidedly flair I think most people would be fine. By making comments that either state directly or imply that Only Mexicans will be on the roster and they it will be a spanish language team and... I think they ruffled a few fathers. All too often in life it is not so much what you plan on doing, or even how you plan on doing something. it is how you say your are going to do something. If Chivas just quietly fielded an entirely mexican team sure we would notice, but we wouldnt care as much. by saying they want rule changes and such we do care.

    so play nice fellas
    my 2 cents

    EDIT: oops that post took so long to write with being at work and all that i missed the fact that carlos is playing nice. cary on
     
  13. uclacarlos

    uclacarlos Member+

    Aug 10, 2003
    east coast
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    I'm not calling anybody a racist, nor an outright xenophobe. My point is that this desire to have a "pure" American league funded by US money is utterly impossible. The question I keep posing is: What constitutes America? Aren't immigrants a part of that? Aren't immigrants the primary consumer group of soccer in this country?

    And in a global economy, no large company (even a small company) is American or Mexican or Swedish or Australian or Austrian or English or Nigerian, etc. Virtually every industry is susceptible to global economic trends, so even small businesses participate in the global economy. To propose rejecting a much needed infusion of cash is simply ludicrous and stems from a xenophobic need to cling to what's familiar.

    BTW: I'll root vs. Chivas USA on the field.
     
  14. galperin

    galperin Member

    Feb 1, 2001
    Maineville, OH
    You might want to rethink your statement of not calling anyone racist or xenophobic. Even if I am an ignorant simpleton (as you so elequently put it), I still know when someone called me racist.


    The CHIVAS USA thing I have a problem with is the fact he wants all Mexican players. That is just wrong. Let's say I just bought a team, and then said I want to make this club white. I want to sign as many whites as I can. Sounds crazy, huh?

    I could care less about where the $ comes from, be it a Mexican investor, Austrian, or from the Netherland Antilles. I just do not want a guy coming in and making a team soley (or largely) based on foreigners. I want American talent built, not Mexican talent. (and yes, Mexican-Americans are Americans)
     
  15. uclacarlos

    uclacarlos Member+

    Aug 10, 2003
    east coast
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    Back to the grammar board...

    I called the rhetoric xenophobic, not necessarily those spewing it. In my statement, the adjective 'xenophobic' modifies 'rhetoric'. no mention of ppl...

    Thank you for including Mexican Americans in your definition of America. Let's make sure everybody else does as well...
     
  16. river

    river Member

    Aug 12, 2001
    Cooper City
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Viagara and MLS

    wueyes!

    Viagara will make the limp MLS stand right up.
    You watch! Guarantizado!~

    We need more foreign in-FUSION and we need the FUSION back in South Florida too! How are we going to do this and make soccer more exciting for us Yankees? More foreing investment in soccer.

    Well, we're (if we play are cards right) about to become a premier league in a few years. If we instead complain about what is really good because we want to be righteous; we will loose and be stuck with boring MLS soccer. It almost happened in the 60's/70's and instead they formed the NASL which eventually went defunct cause it couldn't support itself. Let do it right, we need a world league right here in good 'ol USA. What better place to have such a league then here.

    Chivas is good for all! It's Regal!
     
  17. efernandez9

    efernandez9 Member

    Jun 6, 1999
    Joe Pool Lake
    there is an all argentinean team in spain, in second division, Owned by a wealthy man from argentina.

    I wonder if he had to put up with so much crap and oposition.

    river.....are you familiar with that project? One spaniard, on the bench.

    Money = Futbol at all levels
     
  18. Lithium858

    Lithium858 Member

    Aug 11, 2002
    Baton Rouge
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Hey, I wonder what it would be like for the NBA to make a team in Barcelona or Athens and have all the players American. The amount of support would be unbelieveable!
     
  19. Wallydrag

    Wallydrag BigSoccer Supporter

    Jul 24, 2002
    Oklahoma City
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    It's not Garber, however...

    The spokesman for Omnilife - Vergara's company - explained that Chivas USA will have to respect the history of Chivas, noting the key aspect as: "Young blood, commitment, good soccer, and a spectacle for the fans," before adding that any American players that will be in their squad, will have to be of Hispanic descent.
     
  20. river

    river Member

    Aug 12, 2001
    Cooper City
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    Yeaahhhh!
     
  21. pc4th

    pc4th New Member

    Jun 14, 2003
    North Poll
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Re: Chivas in MLS: good or bad



    The CHIVAS USA thing I have a problem with is the fact he wants all Mexican players.

    LIKE I SAID BEFORE, GIVE ME A LINK TO WHERE THE COMMISSIONER OF MAJOR LEAGUE SOCCER SAID THAT CHIVAS WILL BE ALL MEXICANS PLAYERS.

    innocence until proven guilty is my motto.

    Right now you have ZERO proof except a few people going around blabbering that Chivas will be ALL Mexicans.

    my advice: wait for the MLS CUP press conference where the commisioner of MLS will announce the expansions. If he said that Chivas will be ALL MEXICANS, then I will buy into your argument and believe that CHIVAS IS A BAD THING. Ask yourselves what is the chance of that happening?
     
  22. Sempuukyaku

    Sempuukyaku Member+

    Apr 30, 2002
    Seattle, WA
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Re: Re: Chivas in MLS: good or bad


    Wallydrag has already provided us with the quote in this discussion. It's not the Commissioner, but it is Vergara....the owner of the team. I think that's pretty official.
     
  23. pc4th

    pc4th New Member

    Jun 14, 2003
    North Poll
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Chivas in MLS: good or bad

    It is not even Vergera. Notice that Wallydrag states that The spokesman for Omnilife - Vergara's company

    Are you going to trust the commissioner of MLS or the spokesman of a health company?


    And the source for that is Chris Bergin's site. Sure, I like his articles, but many of them are just rumors. Remember like two week ago, there was an article that Garber will make an announcement pertaining Adu and DC United SSS coming 'this week'. Well, this week passed.
    Go to www.ussocceruk.com and ask Chris is he believe Chivas will have ALL MEXICANS. Let me know what he will say.


    p.s. this is what UCLAcarlos wrote pertaining to that article.

    I posted this in another thread...

    1st of all, the quote is initially taken from La Opinion, a Spanish language daily in LA that is NOTORIOUS for quoting anything and anybody. I wouldn't put too much stock in it.

    2nd: The article quotes that they would go for US Latinos. So the anti-American paranoia doesn't fly, b/c Latinos ARE American. If not, then tell the Armed Forces to stop recruiting our boys to fight for this country...

    3rd: It is vs. US law to discriminate based on race. There's no way this quote could ever come to fruition. The team would suck, and fans wouldn't show up. It would be counter productive. Now, if the team winds up in LA, it wouldn't be a problem w/ attendance. But SD and Houston both are around 20% Mexican. It would far too limiting in scope to cater exclusively to the Mexican market. It just won't fly.

    This is another example of a minion talking.


    anyway, GIVE ME A LINK TO WHERE GARBER STATES THAT CHIVAS WILL BE AN ALL-MEXICANS TEAM then I will be against the Chivas idea.
     
  24. fdp

    fdp Red Card

    Oct 24, 2001
    Chivas y América con visión a EU

    [​IMG]

    je je je
     
  25. christopher d

    christopher d New Member

    Jun 11, 2002
    Weehawken, NJ
    Good, good, and even better than good.

    Why? There's going to be a mother@#$%ing MLS team in my hometown, that's why.

    Current loyalties aside, I won't have to schlep up to the back of beyond to watch some D-1 soccer.

    I could give a rats' red ass if the team was made up of the entire starting lineup from El Tri's '02 WC team, and if Vergara got permission from the president, Jesus Christ, and my mom to only have Mexican nationals play on this team. It'll be an MLS team. In San Diego.

    ¡Fuerza Chivas!

    Although, I do wish they'd call the team Club Deportivo de San Diego / Chivas San Diego instead.
     

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