China Thread III (Tibet, Olympics, Myanmar, More)

I predict Myanmar unrest in May. Before Olympics and with Chinese Chendu Military region's focus in Tibet.

With Taiwan out of the trouble, I expect all unrest are coming in South and West area. From China's Tibet and Xinjiang, to Afghanistan, Pakistan, Myanmar and Iran. May some in India, Nepal and Bhutan too.

 

If this is going to be a general China thread, I'd like to make one criticism about the Chinese government. I wish to protest the very harsh treatment of Chen Liangyu.

 

There are many Shanghai citizens complain too soft.

 

This whole Tibet unrest and current Olympic Torch protests were planned at July 2007 according to this report:

http://www.britanniaradio.co.uk/?q=node/10357

This is the official version from Dalai Lama's exile government:

http://www.tibet.com/newsroom/tsgbrussels4.htm

 

You're blaming Tibet/the Dalai Lama for using the Olympics to draw attention to their fate?

 

Apparently, they're blaming the US State Department, German government and others for conspiring to launch "pogrom-like" attacks in Tibet.

 

The U.S. State Department? Headed up by Condoleeza Rice?

Oh yes, if there is anything they have proven, it's that they can organize a successful secret, clandestine operation.

Let's be honest, blaming the CIA, FBI, and US State Department of anything for the next few years is going to be a punchline to a bad, bad joke. They've shown to be nothing but incompetent.

 

Press War in China:

http://www.danwei.org/internet/southern_metropolis_chang_ping.php

 

I think this is for Chinese domestic assumption.

1. You do have NED and Co. types who want to stir trouble for many countries. Check their track record, that their various color revolutions indeed have success in some countries.

2. You do have cheap politicians like Mr. Bush, Mrs. Merkel, or Ms. Pelosi who loves score points by officially meet Dalai Lama, dishing out medals, and pass useless and rhetoric resolutions.

3. You do have Dalai Lama and his advisers politicalize and stretch those PR moves which send some wrong signals to some elements in Tibet who want independence.

4. You do know that when those elements being misled that if they do something drastic that they will get the real support (not just morally, but materially) to reach their goal. Kind of like what happens in Kosovo.

So basically, you have Western politicians send signals for lamas to riot. Every time when Dalai Lama meet some big name, then lamas from Drepung will just pull off the flag and calling for independence. Then the leaders will get arrested. Then lamas will protest for release their leaders, then you have things going and going. This time many teenagers being directed for violent riot.

Basically someone like Merkel didn't need to do many things to cause trouble in China. So someone who is down Merkel's level in Chinese military, security, etc. will try to push for their argument--China needs to find a way to hit back with low costs. My guess is that turning a blind eye for black market of weapons to certain groups is in those people's mind.

 

Yeah. Many young people involved. What do you think?

 

Nationalism is salt on the soup. Without it, the soup is bad, but too much of it, the soup is spoiled too.

Chinese Communist Party was born out of Chinese modern nationalism and they claimed to be the defender of Chinese nation. One big reason why with so much screw-ups in Mao's economic policies, people today still give him the credit to keep the nation under relentless foreign powers' abuse.

Now current leadership can proudly piont out how they packed 200 years of development into 3 decades and how make China a world power today. Hardly to argue with that.

But for old generations, they valued too much of Western stuffs and didn't value enough of our traditions (includes Tibetan traditions). For our young generation, we need to find out a balance out it, and create a form and a system that best fitting Chinese people and society.

In that value, no matter what West claimes if the values are universial or not, we just need to use our own judgement to see if it is good for us or not. Apparently, free election and democracy in Iraq is a disater. In India, we also see a broken, and still somehow working democracy. Even democracy in America still has a lot of fix to do.

As you pointed out, free press needs to defend Chinese national interests and not controlled by foreign money. Otherwise, you will see all the problems in some countries when they are funded and controlled by foreign interests.

 

This is a Q&A in various Chinese website for Chinese to understand what in the West:

Why should the nationalistic sentiments of the Tibetans be affirmed?
Because they are seeking democracy and freedom.

Why should the nationalistic sentiments of the Han people be reviled?
Because they are brain-dead.

Why are so many people in the world against us? Could it be that they have their reasons?
Of course we need to reflect on this, because they could have their own reasons.

Many overseas Chinese are angry. Could it be that they have their reasons?
No, because they are all brain-dead.

The Tibetans exercise their rights to protest the torch relay. Isn't this a normal exercise of their rights?
Of course. This is a democratic society.

The Han exercise their rights to cheer the torch relay. Isn't this a normal exercise of their rights?
Normal? They are just a bunch of brain-dead people.

Shouldn't the people who oppose the Communists and seek freedom and democracy go back back to China? Otherwise, they seem silly and cowardly?
Why? One can express one's ideas anywhere.

Shouldn't the patriotic, nationalistic angry young people go back to China? Otherwise they seem silly and cowardly?
Of course, because they are all brain-dead.

 

NYT declares Chinese government is losing the PR war.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/14/business/media/14adco.html?_r=1&ref=media&oref=slogin

Someone else says not so:

http://www.danwei.org/2008_beijing_olympic_games/wheelchairs_bbs_pride_pr.php

 

Yes. I'm totally agree with you. It's quite annoying when reading so-called Jingying's 精英 article, keeping calling for free, democracy. For example：
http://blog.ifeng.com/article/1383202.html
This article was recommend by ChangPing. How can you say you don't have freedom of speech in china. Just visit 天涯杂谈, you'll see. Of course, some chinese people such as HuJia 胡佳 can't be contained, because he is paid by NED. Anyway, as far as I know these Jingying's sound is not so well accepted in internet. You can't depend on these people when you meet problems, right? They are just talking, keeping talking. Useless. Of course, they live on this, talking/writing. But who do they think themselves? Saver? Laughable.

However, I thought the whole thing taught me a lot. And I believe many people have the same feeling like me. Thank you guys.

I read this in tianya.cn. Share it with whom can read chinese. I agree, except the last point. As a Han people, I don't care government give minority these. Er, I don't think we'll fight either.

 

It's funny. But I think it was some questiones answered by Jingying, not westerner, and asked by Fenqing of course. Maybe I'm wrong. I'm not so sure either.
BTW, can you tell me how to say Jingying and Fenqing in english?

 

It said ADVERTISING above the title. Did it mean the article is paid by freetobed?

What does PR stand for? Public Relation?

 

It means the topic is about ADVERTISING or PR--Public Relation.

 

Shaster:

Have you seen Wang QianYuan 王千源 in internet? Her video is on Youtube. I've not seen because I think it is not so nice. Anyway somebody said reminding ChaiLing 柴玲 by watching the video.
I didn't get a good impression in ChaiLing after watching Tiananmen(1995). I think you should know something about her. Can you say some? And I want to know what students want to achieve eventually. I mean what made government decide to shoot. It's not an easy decision after all.

 

Yingjing means elites. I guess you mean some of intellectuls.

For whever cannot read Chinese, here is my translation:

"I don't have high demands for governmnet now:

--If you cannot resolve corruption problem, I don't blame you because money is still in the hands of my compatrots.
--If you cannot resolve inflation problem, I don't blame you because goods is still there.
--If you do censorship, I don't blame you because I can get everything through Internet.
--If you do not using democracy, I don't blame you because it will come sooner or later eventually.

But you must be doing those things secretly:

1. Strengthen military defense, speed up the high tech weaponary that is mordern, self-made and practical in the war. Check the Western powers and ready for the wars.

2. Make our own big airplane, nuclear power station. Get away the dependence on foreign technology.

3. Abolish the unequilty policy between different ethnical groups, and give Han the equal oppertunity (kind of like reverse-affirmitive actions in US)."

Leisha, here is my take:

Support Chinese government but don't give them an easy ride. You don't need democracy to address governmental offical corruption. Singapore and Hong Kong don't really have democracy, but have most clean government in Asia. Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan have democracy but corrupt goverments.

Also since inflation will hurt the poorest and most vurable people hardest, I would argue the government does whatever they can to control the prices.

I agree with you that we should keep our affirmitive actions on to bring all miniority groups to share the national development.
　　　　

 

You should take a look on the vedio and at least to understand her opinion. My personal experience with Free Tibet people--it is easy to talk with whoever borned in Tibet and came out. There are many understanding about what Chinese (includes Tibetans) went through in these 20-30 years and understand what the improvement. It is also easy to talk with geniune Americans who support Tibetan Independence but really not understand the complex of the issue. But it is tough to discuss with Tibetans who are born in India and educated in West. They took whatever propaganda they received from Exile government and have unconceiled hatrad toward Chinese (not just CCP).

For Chaling, I met her many years ago in SF at Diane Feinstein's private party and went a lunch with her and others few years later. My take at that--she is a young emotional girl and doesn't really understand whatever she talks. But later, I knew she is starting some of IT business and had her rich husband to pour money in. Well, not my money to be wasted, so what the heck!

Still today, Deng was too hard on his crack down. That is about the main black spot on his legacy. And probably one major reason I left China.

 

Thanks for your translation. hehe. I have no idea with corruption. I think I'm just living with it after so many years. As a normal person, living on my job, seems corruption is part of real life. But I don't know how other people think, who got fired from films due to age and some others. It's really a big hard problem, existing for a long time. Even CCP itself said, if can't solve this, maybe cause their death. But I don't know how to. I think they decided to pay officials more to keep them clean. And they already did it at least in some city or province.

Inflation, yes. The most important challenge for government now. But they have not used this word officially yet. They said price level rising. No matter what, the fact is it's really hard for lower income family. You have to eat. Rice, vegetables, meat, oil are rising from last year. But income is not rising. Yesterday's 新闻联播, the first piece of news is about farming, encouraging farmers to plant rice twice a year instead of once a year. We don't have enough food supplies now. Farming doesn't earn much money, especially the cost is rising. A lot of young people in rural area go to cities or towns to make more money.

We Han people, of course should give minority something. We are the oldest brother of our chinese, should take care of them. But in another hand, I'm afraid of some Uigur. I was pilfered by one Uigur child. However, in the city where I live, minority is not so much.

 

Thank you for sharing your experience! But what I said is not that case, Miss Wang, was born in QingDao, graduated from high school, then came to USA, learned in Duke. So, she is a chinese, but she supports freetobed. So, I think you can guess what happened next. Chinese people in SF disputed with her, and then chinese in internet disputed with her. What a mess. I have not watched the video due to the scene must be embarrassed.

You have not said why Deng decided. Did it because what you want to achieve is something impossible? Yeah, for me, it's a event as Culture Revolution, didn't attend myself. It's easy to talk, to judge. However, when I watched the film first time, when I heard what these students said, I was shocked. This kind of courage didn't be seen from 1989.

 

Several hundred protest Dalai Lama at UW
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2004348334_webdalai14.html?syndication=rss

Pro-China demonstrators target Dalai Lama's UW visit
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/358991_dalai15.html?source=mypi

hehe, here is the link (in chinese, but containing pictures) about this protest, how to prepare, how to do, etc.
http://www.talkcc.net/thread/1545982

And these are pictures.
http://picasaweb.google.com/astimegoesby.2000/2008_04_14_Seattle

 

It is hard for any Chinese who supports any part of China for independence, but still. You have 1.4B people, there are must some of people who think that is a good idea. My personal take is that there isn't such thing called right or wrong for independence or not. It is just national interest.

I have many conversations with people who promote independence. And I told them that for independence to happen, they have to pick up guns. Talks and protests will not do the work. For anything happen like Kosovo, they have to get big help like NATO to fight a war for them with the risk that nuclear bombs may used all over the world. Bascially I told them Tibetan Independence movement was dead at 1959. If they cannot get that when China was weak, then they will not get that when China is strong.

At early years of 1980, Mr. Deng commissioned a study about what is most important factors for China's economic development. The result of concesus in intellectuals is stability. The past 300 years of Chinese history, we had about unrest or rebellions or chaos almost once 3 years. Deng took that very serious due to his painful experience from his childhood all the way to Culture Revolution. Combine that with his believe--no matter what kind of cat you have, you just need the one who catch the mice. So basically he didn't give much thoughs about all the concepts, terms, nice slogans, etc., but pretty much concentrate on one thing--economic growth to move Chinese people out of poverty.

For him, stability is such essense for anything to be archieved. Himself said that if he had to kill 10,000 people to ensure 10 years of stability, he would do it. One reason he was so mad that economic reform almost stopped after 1989 Tian'anmen crackdown and launched his last effort on 1992 because if economic reform didn't go, then those blood would be fully wasted during crackdown.

10 years after that at 1999, you can see that he is at least partially right. Two things he probably regret most are 1. people did lost their lifes during crackdown due to outdated rioting control equipment and method; 2. many oversea Chinese students stayed outside and didn't come back to build the country.