NSR: CHICAGO Political Thread ***HIGHLY TOXIC - ENTER AT YOUR OWN RISK***

People equate Zionism with expansionism. Growing Israel at the expense of a Palestinian state is what I think most people are against.

 

Right, because propagandists have used the word in that manner. If someone is flatly against Zionism, they’re opposing the foundational idea behind a Jewish homeland, which is opposing the existence of the Jewish state itself.

 

So your belief is that everyone should be cool with people from anywhere in the world having more of a right to land in Palestine than the Palestinian people living there so long as they are Jewish? That homeland in Israel has been occupied since before Zionism existed, so yes, I consider calling someone a Zionist a slur because it acknowledges that they believe Palestinian people should give up their land (a land without a people for a people without a land - oops!) in favor of a Jewish ethnostate. Not all Jewish people are zionists, excluding a group that supports Zionism isn’t espousing hate toward Jews, and honestly, good for the Barn Burners for doing it.

 

I’m not here to argue who has the greater right to the land. You believe it’s the Palestinians and that’s your right. I wouldn’t call you a Palestinian nationalist or suggest you ought to be barred from Fire games because of it.

Zionism, stripped of the hysteria, is simply the belief that the Jewish people have a right to self-determination in their ancestral homeland. That doesn’t inherently mean taking anyone else’s rights, nor does it require endorsing every policy cooked up by Netanyahu.

Using “Zionist” as a slur to justify excluding a Jewish group from a soccer game crosses a line. I just find a ton of hypocrisy in it.

 

Yes, correct, that is something that I am opposed to

It absolutely takes away the rights of the people actually living in that land. There’s no argument to be had. Over the past few decades, it has gone beyond theoretically taking people’s rights away, to actually taking their lives. Even stripped of whatever ‘hysteria’ you believe is muddying the conversation, Jewish people’s ancestral homeland has been occupied for centuries. Saying they have a right to that land now despite that fact that it is inhabited by actual human beings is gross, and since we have a name for the people that believe this (Zionists) it is fair to acknowledge that gross belief system by employing the word as a slur. There is a difference between a Jewish person and a Zionist- excluding Jewish people for being Jewish is absolutely disgusting and intolerable. Excluding any person or group for believing that they have a right to someone else’s land (a core Zionist belief) is a-okay.

The Barn Burners statement (correctly) points out that the Chicago Jewish Alliance does not represent the values of the team’s Jewish fan base, I am glad that they are prioritizing them over this group of Zionists.

 

You're not the arbiter on whose land it is, so you can ******** off. You're the ********ing problem and why a solution isn't near.

 

LMAO and ******** you, too then I guess. The land is occupied, it does not require an arbiter. Do you need an arbiter to tell you your home is your home? Or does the fact that you’re living there imply ownership? Glad to see someone else’s right to existence is debatable to you, really solid moral value system you have there, friendo.

 

Leave the US. You're an occupier.

 

LMAO I guess Zionist isn’t the only word that you use but don’t understand.

 

You support a radical position that is right in line with Hamas, as Ghazi Hamad said "We are the victims of the occupation. Therefore, nobody should blame us for the things we do." So again, if that's where you are coming from you can ******** off. Not much worth discussing with someone that supports genocide.

 

So you don’t understand what genocide means either, huh? What are the odds.

 

Pretty sure this is: "O Allah, destroy the Jews and their supporters... without leaving a single one."

 

Allah…Adolph…same difference….

Jewish people have lived there forever, Palestinian people have lived there forever, and Christian people have lived there for…awhile.

Who wins?

I’m pretty sure a two state solution is the only viable option.

 

Yes, a slogan now = genocide, cool, cool. Then I guess ‘a land without people for a people without land’ would qualify too, since Israel is doing a great job of eliminating people from that land. Finally someone on this board that believes what Israel is doing is genocide - praise Allah.

 

A slogan? It's in the Hamas charter from 1988, it's a founding principal, is is doctrinal, foundational, and central. Why are you obfuscating? Your arguments are facile and lack either intellectual honesty or rigor, which is why discussing this with you is so frustrating. You're a classic ideologue that can only empathize with your point. Pretending this is equivalent to a 19th-century Zionist phrase like “a land without a people” is not just false equivalence but performative sophistry. Engaging with you is like shouting into a hermeneutic void.

 

Shaqiri 2028 would be an improvement!

 

You… you do realize that ‘a land without people for people without a land’ was a founding principal of Zionism, no? And that aplenty of zionists still use the phrase to this day? Keep shouting into the void - if you want to believe that Zionism is some innocent, noble, or justified moniker that isn’t an insult, I certainly don’t think I’ll be the one to convince you- you still only seem to understand about half the words you’re using anyway.

My initial argument was simply that Zionism being used as a slur makes perfect sense to me, and that quickly had to be adjusted to remind or inform (depending on how out of touch you really are) you that Zionism is rooted on the premise of taking away Palestians’ rights and land. You’ve done a good job of insulting me, and making assumptions about my beliefs on other semi-related issues, which is always appreciated, but a pisspoor job of demonstrating that Zionism shouldn’t be used as a slur, and that it is not fundamentally based on taking something that belongs to someone else. Typical day on the internet, I guess.

 

How do you spell ‘vanishing’?

Hamas coming to power really has ********ed everything up pretty badly. It gave air to people fascists like Netanyahu.

 

That's some revisionism right there.

 

This conversation is an exercise in epistemic nihilism. Your insistence that Zionism is reducible to dispossession is a textbook case of reductive essentialism. You isolate one strain, reframe it as the entirety, and then use that distortion to rationalize dehumanizing language. Stop pretending to educate others on a subject you so clearly misunderstand.

 

Apparently this has nothing at all to do with Zionism, it must be magic!

Literally just a map over time. Do you not understand how those work, either?

lol it is not just a strain of Zionists that have advocated for the dispossession of Palestine, it is one of the founding principles of the ideology. Zionism essentially doesn’t exist without that philosophy that their ‘ancestral homeland’ belongs to them- not the people that have occupied it for generations. That is way more dehumanizing than using the term that they self-apply as a slur.

 

You're embarrassing yourself, you don't have knowledge on the subject, just indoctrination into a nationalist narrative. The map paints a false narrative, it's purposely misleading. It shows a name of a region controlled by the Ottomans and later Jordan and then conflates it with areas controlled by a population in later years.

Your view of Zionism is lazy and reductive, your use/understanding of the word signals your views. Again you are clearly aligned with an antisemitic view rallied on by Hamas and nationalists only seeing one group with the right to self determination. If you cared about justice, you’d advocate for coexistence, not erasure.

 

You “Zionism is completely innocent and good, actually” me “um, you know, Zionism wouldn’t exist without the core belief that someone else’s land belongs to them, and that belief has lead to death and destruction” you “YOURE BEING REDUCTIVE!!!”. I love it when people don’t understand the words they’re using - keep pulling up the thesaurus bud, maybe you’ll use one of those big words you just discovered correctly (even if by accident) if you just keep throwing shit on to the internet hoping something will stick.

 

Things I’ve learned from this exchange with @harrylee773 :
One, he can’t read a map.
Two, he can’t follow an argument.
Three, he has to invent facts just to pretend to have a point.