NSR: CHICAGO Political Thread ***HIGHLY TOXIC - ENTER AT YOUR OWN RISK***

Doing nothing is indefensible.

 

You like to post that statement for some reason, but it is not and never has been.

It is a defense to a criminal charge. It must be asserted by the defendant and then assessed by the trier of fact.

If the "self defense" is disproportionate to the perceived harm it will (and should) be rejected.

 

One death vs. another death plus tens of thousands?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

Not at all what I was saying.

Either in this case or in general.

It should never be the presumption.

Self defense is a defense to a charge. It should not be used proactively. Ever.

As for this case, we have no idea why the insurance guy was killed.
I suspect we will when the perpetrator is caught.

Even if (and this is speculation) the perpetrator took this action about insurance decisions (and I just received a denial letter from my insurance company today!), it will not "save" any lives.

It is still not self-defense (nor is it "defense of others").

 

The tyrant Assad The Younger was last seen fleeing Damascus. Thousands of Syrian soldiers and security forces have changed into civilian clothes and fled to Iraq. The opposition, mostly Islamist forces, appear to control the capital and has probably ended over 50 years of Ba'ath Party rule in Syria. The big question now, what next?

 

Not much good. Hopefully not as crap as Assad (a low bar). For those outside of Syria, at least it's guys who have plenty of reason to dislike Russia.

 

Officially, Hitler never killed anyone.

 

I knew you would bring up Hitler. That is a canard and not relevant to the conversation.

Nobody killed him, so your assertion makes no sense in the context of the current discussion.

Also, I not sure that your assertion is correct. I believe the evidence is that he was directly responsible for people being killed, and in his presence, whether or not he "pulled the trigger."

Shooting an insurance executive will not "save" thousands of lives, so your analogy is illogical.

 

Finally, if someone had killed Hitler and was arrested, that person could assert a "defense of others" affirmative defense.

Perhaps the trier of fact would accept it, despite your claim that "officially" Hitler never killed anyone.

 

The ability to understand analogies is a sign of higher intelligence - a sign that you consistently show when posting about the EPL (which sucks).

I disagree with the implied assertion that layers of bureaucracy can buffer an administrator from guilt for the direct or indirect results of their decisions. That’s the cover used by libertarians. That a person can be immune from the repercussions of their decisions and actions because their highest or only priority is shareholder wealth. The consequences of the decisions made under this cover are simply indirect, collateral damage. This assertion is false and why libertarianism needs to die.

Murder may be wrong in virtually all cases but in this case the action might not be murder.

 

“…Others wryly pointed out that the reward for information connected to the murder, $10,000, was less than their annual deductibles. One observer recommended that Thompson be scheduled to see a specialist in a few months, maybe.”

The Rage and Glee That Followed a C.E.O.’s Killing Should Ring All Alarms
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/12/06/opinion/united-health-care-ceo-shooting.html

 

Actually surprised this doesn't happen more often. People get killed by insurance companies on the regular by not getting life saving treatment due to costs (this happens in Europe too with public health services). If you sentence someone to death they may just want to exact revenge, especially in a Country where access to weapons is so easy.

 

UnitedHealth uses AI model with 90% error rate to deny care, lawsuit alleges
For the largest health insurer in the US, AI's error rate is like a feature, not a bug.
https://arstechnica.com/health/2023...derly-out-of-rehab-nursing-homes-suit-claims/

 

“At one point, court records show, United inaccurately reported to Penn State and the family that McNaughton’s doctor had agreed to lower the doses of his medication. Another time, a doctor paid by United concluded that denying payments for McNaughton’s treatment could put his health at risk, but the company buried his report and did not consider its findings. The insurer did, however, consider a report submitted by a company doctor who rubber-stamped the recommendation of a United nurse to reject paying for the treatment.”

“In emails, officials calculated what McNaughton was costing them to keep his crippling disease at bay and how much they would save if they forced him to undergo a cheaper treatment that had already failed him.”

UnitedHealthcare Tried to Deny Coverage to a Chronically Ill Patient. He Fought Back, Exposing the Insurer’s Inner Workings.

https://www.propublica.org/article/unitedhealth-healthcare-insurance-denial-ulcerative-colitis

 

While Hitler did receive an Iron Cross in WW1 is was for bravery under fire as a courier and allegedly never fired a shot at the enemy. I don't really believe that's possible as I seem to have a vague recollection of him being a regular trench bound infantryman BEFORE he volunteered to replace the dead courier. Other than himself and his orders which killed 11M he didn't kill anyone directly and neither did this CEO so in a way it's relevant.

<ducks and signs off>

EDIT:

Yes that was because if you deny EVERYBODY the rates of people who are going to argue drop to probably 50% so for them that's like free money and plausible deniability. It's a "FU CYA" move and they were the best at it apparently.

 

“Many people, faced with fighting insurance companies, simply give up: One study found that Americans file formal appeals on only 0.1% of claims denied by insurers under the Affordable Care Act.”

 

“My one family member with solid insurance is my dog. He got elective surgery recently, and I was astounded by the straightforward nature of his insurance.”

What Doctors Like Myself Know About Americans’ Health Care Anger
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/12/08/opinion/health-care-anger.html

 

Surprised? Did you misspell disappointed?

 

Nobody is disagreeing with the bolded part, and it is precisely my point.
What differentiates murder from other forms of killing is motive/mens rea and potential defenses.
I won't go into the entire lecture I give to my students on the different levels of culpability, but I have a thought experiment for the students with four very similar actions, but in each scenario the thought process of the perpetrator varies.

However, to get backt to the point, the two scenarios under discussion are fundamentally different.
I really did not think I would have to get into this, but I will be brief.

If someone had foresight of the end results of Hitler's actions (and people could, by reading his writings and listening to his rhetoric), that would have directly stopped the deaths of millions. He was a uniquely evil character for his time, location and activity.
The Germans could not have simply installed "another" Hitler. Mengele was as evil, but was not a governmental leader. Himmler, Goebbels, and Eichmann did not have the backing of any of the people (although Goebbels would doubtlessly have tried).

If someone shoots and kills a health insurance executive, the company will simply replace that individual with another individual who will likely be equally repugnant.

They are fundamentally unlike, hence my comment that the analogy was unpersuasive.

Mostly unrelated, but I just watched a show today on the approximately 40 attempts to assassinate Hitler, including a completely bonkers British plan of tainting his food with estrogen to lower his testosterone levels. They did not attempt it.

 

You are missing/ignoring one of the fundamental tenants of fascism. The libertarian wet dream of melding corporate and political power together is a foundational element of fascism. Viewed through that lens, an executive is an unelected political leader.

Fascist leadership needs to die.

 

Not that any of that matters with self defense.

 

Google’s RCS Nightmare—Why You Need A New App
https://www.forbes.com/sites/zakdoffman/2024/12/09/googles-rcs-nightmare-why-you-need-a-new-app/

 

Iran in a ‘position of unprecedented weakness’ after the fall of Assad in Syria
Iran finds itself isolated after the fall of Bashar al-Assad in Syria, which upended the Middle East by dismantling the “Axis of Resistance” – an informal, Iran-led alliance uniting Syria and armed groups like Hamas and Hezbollah. With key allies destroyed or weakened, Tehran will be forced to redefine its security policy and its regional role.
https://www.france24.com/en/middle-...-of-assad-syria-proxies-hezbollah-middle-east

 

“To some, he’s an anticapitalist arch villain. To others, he is a Marxist folk hero exacting revenge against the unchecked avarice of American medical insurance companies. To yet more, he’s a damaged young man struggling with a variety of intense health issues, whose family and friends desperately tried to reach out to him after he disappeared in the weeks and months before the killing.”

Rage, race and good looks: the forces behind the lionization of a murder suspect
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...c/15/luigi-mangione-unitedhealthcare-shooting

 

Libertarianism is fascism.

“…the history of the German industrialists’ support of Hitler shows ‘what can go wrong when political objectives and the pursuit of profit become dangerously entwined.’”

https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/how-big-business-bailed-out-nazis