NSR: CHICAGO Political Thread ***HIGHLY TOXIC - ENTER AT YOUR OWN RISK***

Discussion in 'Chicago Fire' started by skinut, Nov 12, 2016.

  1. juicecrewallstar

    Chicago Fire
    United States
    Mar 1, 2019
    that should be Israel’s choice to make

    they can either observe human rights in the use of their aid or they can not receive it — if not receiving it means “getting wiped off the map” then that’s their choice

    (this is not actually Israel’s choice because the US has no concern for the lack of human rights observance — but it should be)
     
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  2. juicecrewallstar

    Chicago Fire
    United States
    Mar 1, 2019
    further, there is a distinction between defensive weaponry used to defend Israel (i.e. it’s Iron Dome) and weaponry used to bomb Gaza

    there is absolutely no justification for the continued provision of the latter when Israel has killed over 40,000 civilians and displaced millions of people with US war technology

    if you insist that funding be continued for anti-missile technology and the like, I’ll listen — we are sending bombs that are taking out hospitals, universities, and so on

    it is indefensible
     
  3. juicecrewallstar

    Chicago Fire
    United States
    Mar 1, 2019
    #6453 juicecrewallstar, Oct 6, 2024
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2024
    there is a fundamental misunderstanding — or worse, a disregard — to leverage here

    if Israel’s existence is so dependent on the United States then the US should condition its aid on the observance of basic human rights because Israel should have no other choice
     
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  4. xtomx

    xtomx Member+

    Chicago Fire
    Sep 6, 2001
    Northern Wisconsin, but not far from civilization
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Again, I don't disagree, but that is not the current mindset.

    Personally, I would like the US to end almost all foreign military aid (except, for now, Ukraine- give them all the money needed to repel the f'n Russians) and replace that money with humanitarian aid.
    But I am pacifist, so I would like us to cut our military budget by a lot and bump up domestic spending on other things.
     
  5. bunge

    bunge BigSoccer Supporter

    Oct 24, 2000
    Russia is indiscriminately bombing civilian infrastructure. Israel is not.

    You might want to check your sources.
     
  6. bunge

    bunge BigSoccer Supporter

    Oct 24, 2000
    What I find odd, and you may even be included in this group but I doubt it, but most people don’t realize that Palestinians make up roughly 20% of Israel’s population. I think Israel's population is about ten million with two million of them being Palestinians. This does not include the West Bank or Gaza.

    I would guess most non-Jewish or Palestinian people in the US would have no idea about this.
     
  7. xtomx

    xtomx Member+

    Chicago Fire
    Sep 6, 2001
    Northern Wisconsin, but not far from civilization
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Of course they do and that is just the population of Palestinians within Israel and does not even include the Israelis who live in the areas of Palestine that Israel annexed.

    I watched a show about mixed populations and the annexation a few months ago and it was horrifying how the Palestinian people are treated.
     
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  8. juicecrewallstar

    Chicago Fire
    United States
    Mar 1, 2019
    okay

    Israel is bombing hospitals and universities nonetheless
     
  9. juicecrewallstar

    Chicago Fire
    United States
    Mar 1, 2019
    I don’t really understand the purpose of the Russia whataboutism
     
  10. juicecrewallstar

    Chicago Fire
    United States
    Mar 1, 2019
    I don’t know what you mean by “not the current mindset”

    clearly it’s not the policy and practice of the Biden administration or congress, but what does that matter when we’re arguing about what is right vs wrong
     
  11. juicecrewallstar

    Chicago Fire
    United States
    Mar 1, 2019
    Israel has operated an apartheid state for many years

    the anger at how things are playing out in Palestine are not contained to a one-year vacuum since October 7

    much of Israel’s bad behavior can be traced back to years of enabling by the United States to fund an apartheid regime with no consequences
     
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  12. bunge

    bunge BigSoccer Supporter

    Oct 24, 2000
    What you continue to ignore is the fact that Hamas is a militarized organization that embeds itself within a civilian population. That unfortunately turns the civilian targets into military targets.

    This of course puts everyone in an impossible situation. Israelis want to exist and Palestinians don’t want to die but everyone is held captive by terrorists that believe in martyrdom and have no issue sacrificing children on either side of the conflict. It’s an impossible situation.
     
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  13. bunge

    bunge BigSoccer Supporter

    Oct 24, 2000
    This is a huge part of the problem. Rather than deal with the problem during calmer times everyone chose to kick the can down the road. We are stuck with the unfortunate outcome of that lack of urgency.
     
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  14. juicecrewallstar

    Chicago Fire
    United States
    Mar 1, 2019
    #6464 juicecrewallstar, Oct 7, 2024
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2024
    I am not ignoring that fact

    October 7th was tragic and cruel but had minimal bearing on Israel’s “existence”

    there is clearly little regard for Palestinians’ right to exist
     
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  15. juicecrewallstar

    Chicago Fire
    United States
    Mar 1, 2019
    there is absolutely no evidence that Hamas is a threat to Israel's existence

    data from the UN starting January 2008 through today, which excludes figures in the Gaza strip in the last year as well as the attack on October 7: https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties

    between 2008 and today, 344 Israelis have been killed in confrontations with Palestinians and 6,500 have been injured -- meanwhile, 7,000 Palestinians have been killed by Israelis and over 150,000 injured

    Hamas may commit atrocities and kill civilians, but nowhere near the rate that Israel does


    the only way the support of Israel's ongoing slaughter of Palestinians is justified is if you hold that an Israeli life is more valuable than a Palestinian life
     
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  16. bunge

    bunge BigSoccer Supporter

    Oct 24, 2000
    I believe this is a false premise.
     
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  17. juicecrewallstar

    Chicago Fire
    United States
    Mar 1, 2019
    show your work

    i've shown the numbers, need something more than "i believe" if we're going to kill 40k civilians and displace millions
     
  18. bunge

    bunge BigSoccer Supporter

    Oct 24, 2000
    There are decades of evidence and random internet searches will find plenty of it.

    https://www.wilsoncenter.org/article/doctrine-hamas

    That's the first one that popped up. I looked up its leanings just in case it was pure propaganda:

    Why Hamas exists:

    So again, we can pretend that Hamas, Hezbollah and the Houthis are all small in comparison to Israel, and they are, but they are just proxies for Iran who is not small. They dwarf over Israel in terms of population and of course have an unfortunately oversized influence in the region as a threatening potential nuclear power.

    I do not know where to confirm these numbers but they are at least a ballpark example:

    https://www.reuters.com/world/middl...-strikes-40000-hamas-targets-gaza-2024-10-07/

    An "Iron Dome" can't really protect a nation forever. Rockets already make it through. There is no easy answer but pretending Israel isn't threatened isn't really the way to find a lasting solution.
     
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  19. juicecrewallstar

    Chicago Fire
    United States
    Mar 1, 2019
    if our concern is Iran and its nuclear arsenal then we can agree that Hamas in Palestine and Beirut is not an existential threat to Israel

    in fact, Israeli behavior seems more likely to provoke Iran into something that might indeed be an existential threat to Israel
     
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  20. sportscrazed2

    sportscrazed2 Member+

    Jul 30, 2008
    Mordor, Middle Earth
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The best day in India is worst than the worst day in Indiana. #legalizeit #imeanimmigration. I think it's only fair. Watched a dude pick trash out of a shit river for $4 a day. God bless America
    PXL_20241007_191833706.jpg
     
  21. bunge

    bunge BigSoccer Supporter

    Oct 24, 2000
    I’ve seen far worse in India.
     
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  22. bunge

    bunge BigSoccer Supporter

    Oct 24, 2000
    I mean, why wouldn't Israelis see this as an existential threat?

    Saying Israelis shouldn't see Iran and its proxies as a threat to their existence when it is the explicitly stated reason for the existence of the militant group makes about as much sense as saying Palestinians have no reason to believe Israel might be a existential threat to the Palestinian people.
     
  23. Khan

    Khan Member+

    Mar 16, 2000
    On the road
    You seem surprised by this.

    Why, exactly?
     
  24. juicecrewallstar

    Chicago Fire
    United States
    Mar 1, 2019
    #6474 juicecrewallstar, Oct 7, 2024
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2024
    I am saying that the Hamas militia existing in Gaza -- that are serving as the the justification for killing 40k civilians -- do not present an existential threat to Israel, even if their stated goal is the end of Israel

    350 civilians killed by Hamas between 2008 and 2024 (pre-october 7) is not an existential threat


    in other words, the idea that Israel would cease to exist but for the bombing of Gaza and Beirut is ludicrous -- if Israel's existence is threatened then it is not because of Hamas in Gaza
     
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  25. sportscrazed2

    sportscrazed2 Member+

    Jul 30, 2008
    Mordor, Middle Earth
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    it's possible I'm not looking hard enough
     

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