So, in Presidential asshole news, RFK Jr. is demonstrating that is even stupider and more of an asshole than we thought. “I can make the argument that President Biden is the much worse threat to democracy,” Kennedy said on CNN. “And the reason for that is President Biden is the first candidate in history — the first president in history — that has used the federal agencies to censor political speech, so to censor his opponent.” Idiocy.
That's not really the issue, at least from my perspective. It is who pays for the roads. Should those who are "hardest" on the roads pay more for the use of the roads than others? Should those who don't drive pay precisely the same amount for the roads as those who drive every day, all day? That is the way it is now.
If we insist on making students bear the brunt of education, I will sign on to your list. Feel free to make me the "John Hancock" of your personal Declaration of Something or other.
A system that mandates all payments be based solely on benefits received would be vastly different from the current one.( $2,000 fee for police call, $10,000 for fire dept. $10,000 per child per year for public school). I agree that money is often not spent wisely and improvement in allocating government spending is sorely needed. However everybody has a different idea of the perfect way to do it. Gets complicated real fast!
Which, of course, is not what I said. I was talking about adjusting payments for the use of roads for those who use them the most (which we currently do with toll roads). That's all. However, since you mention it, I have never had to call the police (have had a couple of car crashes, where they showed up, though). I have never had a fire. I never had children in public school. Yet, I happily pay for all of those services. I did pay for the one ambulance ride when I was hit by a car, even though I was the "victim."
Kinda sorta sounded like you were saying costs should be allocated based on usage. Thank you for paying for things you do not use, just like the rest of us! OK, now I get it. You want the government to spend money where you want it spent- just like the rest of us!
I made my point above. I want money to be spent where it will do the most good for those who need things the most. Not where "I want it." No need to comment further.
There's that word, again: "Should." How, exactly, would this occur? (Bear in mind that the overwhelming majority of Americans do not attend college.) And yet, earlier you stated: ..."it’s a requirement to have a future in many cases." (Referring to college education as a means for future job prospects.) Yet again, the overwhelming majority of Americans do not pursue higher education, yet most are able to find their way without it. My reference to the trades (many do not require any training that has a cost) was merely one of out many examples how one could make their way.And if you are able-bodied (the majority of us are), the trades are a perfectly cromulent path. And again: How, exactly, would you accomplish either of these things, when most Americans do not attend college? "Free college" is a dandy idea, but it is not nearly as popular with the general public as you might hope. "Loan forgiveness?" Well, we've seen how that went, with this political climate, and that USSC. Basing a suite of solutions on highly improbable outcomes sounds very, "I want a pony-ish" sort of wishcasting. Better to enact changes that have any prayer of occurring, than it is to hope for a miracle.
We don’t base things on what a majority of Americans does or wants, and never have. Thinking we should is extremely short sighted and leads to a situation where we have stagnant minimum wages, millions in debt, and the prospect of homeownership further and further out of reach for the common person. Cromulent or not, the trades aren’t a solution to the problem of education not being financially viable for many people, and many just aren’t cut out for it. Wonder how many more people would be students if they could afford it, or didn’t have to take a loan to be able to afford it. How exactly would this occur? How does anything occur in this country? With tax money. Duh. We waste it on things like air traffic control, arms, aid to Israel, and a bunch of other stuff many do not want, need or use, but somehow the idea of educating people beyond high school has to be more popular. Almost makes me wonder why people are so afraid of easy access to post secondary education that they want it to remain behind a paywall.
Winner winner chicken dinner. Take the profit margin out of public education and let private institutions live or die on their own merits.
I have said that repeatedly on this thread and the original l thread. Profit margin out of paying for public education, as there is no profit margin for public education. THAT'S the first step to fixing higher education.
Public education is a hell of a topic, in that it is a truly core 'democratic republic' topic and can't be "fixed" until we can agree on (and define) it's purpose. Predatory loans and universities for profit are resultant symptoms of our current view and approach to education, not root issues. I'm fond of the Jeffersonian view, as I understand it. It has been twisted in so many ways that it needs clarified, agreed to, and then defined for how it works in this era with this population. A Republic teeming with informed, engaged, citizens with critical thinking skills is far from our current state. A couple of the "root issues" are: Many (including Jefferson) are advocates of the "smallest possible Federal Government", Religion/Churches are not governing bodies and should not be indoctrinating, er, teaching tribal thought "in the name of the nation", state based vs federal based, level when public education transitions from state provided to the individual's pursuit of being life long learner, etc. An over simplified view of US education 'inflection points' (organized -> mass manufacturing methods -> GI Bill -> Brown v board of Ed -> standardized testing) makes it clear we are long overdue for new vision and targets. Sadly there is no true appetite for reform. Like most topics these days it is infinitely easier to talk about how an opposing political party view has it all wrong than it is to work to achieve compromise and progress. The American experiment is failing; money, power, and faux christianity resist helping those in need and raising our lowest common denominator. The haves and the have nots appears to be an unavoidable human condition that history has shown will lead eventually to "let them eat cake" and revolution. TL/DR: Educated citizens are needed to make the American experiment in self-government succeed, and it is in our (government) best interest for access to be provided to all citizens.
I did a semester in Sheffield, England once upon a time. Ya know how my classmates go to go to university? They tested well enough in some area to study in that discipline. If mom and dad could afford it but the kid did not have the requisite aptitude for the field, as compared to fellow students across Britian, they didn't go to uni. (Yes. there are very real issues with making the necessary test scores if you are coming from a second-rate school, just like here and everywhere else.) My classmates came from a wider cross section of that country than what you see here. If you tested well enough to get excepted, your tuition and room and board was covered, Hell, you even got a modest amount walking around money. The bean counters figured out that the cost to taxpayers was more than offset by the economic stimulus, across SO many parts of the economy. that graduating people with a sound aptitude in the field they studied produced across the society. There is no Utopia, but our current sh*tstem is painfully farcical.
I hear ya. As a youth I attended kindergarten and the first years of grade school in Denmark and Germany. The intentional nature of European education has it's merits...but by nature is viewed in the US as "anti liberty"....despite it being a reasonable 'natural balance'. Kinda damned if you do damned if you don't. In that 'social engineering' is both likely to be better than chaos and limiting of freedom. Why I mentioned 'purpose' at the beginning of my prior post, without zooming out to identify (and agree on) purpose the conversation is messy AF....which is where it lives today.
Sure: We still have slavery, and women can't vote, right? We live in a majority rule society. One would have expected that an educated mind would have reconciled with this reality. Incorrect: Minimum wages have increased in recent years, though one could agree that they could be pegged to inflation, and perhaps they could be increased further. "Millions in debt?" Sure, plenty of people with mortgages are in debt. People who have car notes have debt. Debt is a tool, when used appropriately by the borrower, and properly by the lender. Student loans have not been lent/borrowed appropriately. And yet, you ignore that they are a low-cost means to one making their way in life, without going to college. Plenty of people can do so. And, an overwhelming majority of Americans do not attend college. And yet, most people don't. And how would you get "tax money," without the political will to do so? Once again, its a 70/30 split of Americans who do not attend college, over those who do. (Protip: Ya need a political majority to get "tax money.") Wait, safe air travel is "a waste?" Welcome to adulting. Taxes are spent on a lot of things you won't ever use. As noted above, 70% of Americans say that you're wrong on this. Again: 70% of Americans don't use the product that you want them to pay for. And a lot of the 30% of us who did attend college are likely to be against "free college." Like it or not, its not the popular will of the people. This remains "I want a pony" wishcasting on your part, without any basis in reality.
Meh, this sounds like, "I'm not gonna vote for Hillary, 'cuz she ain't liberal enough; I'd rather let Trump burn it all down." By contrast, doing what we can when we can has gotten us Obamacare. Wishcasting (politically) often leads to outright jack and sh!t happening. And wasting political will on something that a vast majority of Americans don't currently use is a waste of that will. Far better to work on a public option for healthcare, as ALL of us use healthcare. As it pertains to student loans, better work to reduce harms, that to wishcasr on them going away. (Kinda like cigarettes.)
No, just our philosophical discussions need to set the actual goals while we negotiate and compromise at the political level.
Curious where those numbers come from...not saying you are wrong, just that a quick Gsearch I did came back with "update from the Lumina Foundation finds the percentage of working age adults who’ve earned a college degree or other postsecondary credential climbed to 54.3% in 2022, the most recent year for which data are available." Like with most stats you have to dig a tad deeper to see what the details are https://www.luminafoundation.org/stronger-nation/report/#/progress
A bit optimistic, IMO, but to each his own. I'd prefer we fix what we can, and progress from there... Here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational_attainment_in_the_United_States To be more precise, that link gives a rate of 34.98% of Americans 25 and older completing a bachelors degree. Pew says its closer to 4 in 10 americans: https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2022/04/12/10-facts-about-todays-college-graduates/
Back to the "depends on the stats".....Associates degrees are over 45% and "some college" is over 60%...so to your point about "Wishcasting (politically) often leads to outright jack and sh!t happening. And wasting political will on something that a vast majority of Americans don't currently use is a waste of that will." I'd counter 60+% use and support "college".
I think thats more fair, and I do support free JUCO. Still, most Americans don't complete a bachelors or higher.
I'm not sure setting goals is optimistic, but it is a helpful guide. Like Burnham said about his plan Plan of Chicago. Make big plans even if you can only achieve so much right now.
Understood, but at the same time, if even a red state like Tennessee can pass free Juco for THEIR kids, I think that there is something of an appetite for free JUCO nationwide. What's more, JUCO covers a lot of non-baccalaureate programs and careers, from dental hygienists and CNAs and radiology techs, to auto body and auto techs and yes, the trades that we're all supposed to hate for "reasons." Or something. Oh, and for those kids that DO go on to pursue a bachelors, not having to squander money on English 101/assorted pre-reqs cuts down the costs to complete said programs. And, it fvkcs over the for-profits that are in it for that sweet, sweet cash.