NSR: CHICAGO Political Thread ***HIGHLY TOXIC - ENTER AT YOUR OWN RISK***

Discussion in 'Chicago Fire' started by skinut, Nov 12, 2016.

  1. bunge

    bunge BigSoccer Supporter

    Oct 24, 2000
    Cop wasn’t scared. He shot a compliant individual. He may have panicked, but that’s not fear. That’s a tragic mistake and he should be behind bars.
     
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  2. GHjelm

    GHjelm Member+

    Apr 23, 2008
    Batavia
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    I assumed the cop was another Chauvin or worse before watching the full videos at COPA.

    When the cop pulls up to Adam, you can see him holding the gun behind his back while standing facing away/side face to the cop. The cop gets out of the car and commands Adam to drop the gun and put his hands up. Adam is standing next the edge of a fence as this is happening. Adam tries to comply and tosses the gun behind the fence while raising his hands and turning toward the cop. Unfortunately, from the cop's perspective, he can't see the gun falling on the other side of the fence. All he sees is Adam turning toward him with hands raising toward the officer and probably assumes he's still holding the gun. I'm guessing this is where we differ in opinion. Let me know if it's not. I think the officer honestly thought he was in danger. He was deadly wrong and he will pay for it in multiple ways. If that cop is anything but a full on monster, this will eat away at him for the rest of his life. Obviously Adam would probably trade places with him in a minute. The biggest tragedy is of course Adam's death, but I do have some empathy for that cop.
     
  3. harrylee773

    harrylee773 Member+

    Jul 28, 2004
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    He shot a 13 year child that had surrendered and was complying with his orders, so I mean, I don't know where that falls on the Chauvin monster scale but I don't feel bad for him, either. We differ in that I don't feel bad for the cop or the 21 year old that was with the child while you feel empathy toward only one of them. And that's fine, like I said though, I feel like anything you can say to justify feeling sorry for the officer can also apply to the 21 year old.
     
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  4. xtomx

    xtomx Member+

    Chicago Fire
    Sep 6, 2001
    Northern Wisconsin, but not far from civilization
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    The police should not kill people.
    I don't know how many times this needs to be repeated.

    We do not execute convicted murderers in Illinois.

    The police are not executioners. They should not shoot people who have not been convicted, or tried, or even arrested for a crime.

    There is no due process, there is no justice, there is nothing even remotely close to a civilized society if we excuse the extrajudicial killing of suspects, not to mention 13 year old kids.

    At most, they are engaging with "suspects." The police have no knowledge as to the circumstances of the event.

    Also, even if the kid had a gun, that is f'n excuse to kill him. If a police officer cannot disarm a 13 year old kid without killing him, that is a MAJOR failing on the behalf of the police.

    I have no empathy whatsoever for the cop. He had a job to do. He failed miserably in that job.
    He killed a 13 year old kid.
    He killed a kid who was not even suspected of having committed a serious crime.
     
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  5. GHjelm

    GHjelm Member+

    Apr 23, 2008
    Batavia
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    I don't think the cop could tell he was surrendering until it was too late. He made a horrendous, split second decision based on bad info. That's not the same as actively killing someone for 9 minutes, 3 of which were after George Floyd stopped breathing/moving. As for the 21 year old, he's the adult that precipitated the whole situation. He took a child out to do whatever they were doing at 230 in the morning, gave him the gun that got him shot and caused a cop to become a child killer and the most hated person in his city.
     
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  6. GHjelm

    GHjelm Member+

    Apr 23, 2008
    Batavia
    Club:
    Chicago Fire

    Until we get the levels of guns on our streets waaaayyy lower, it's unreasonable to expect police officers to not be able to defend themselves against suspects with guns. This cop ********ed up royally. All I'm saying is that he committed manslaughter. He did not execute anyone. My intrepretation of that video shows a cop mistakenly thinking he is defending himself and being dead wrong, with the worst consequences imaginable. I know people want a world that is black and white, but intentions matter, both morally and under the law.

    I'm absolutely able to admit that this is all based on how I interpreted the video. If it comes out that this cop has 3 previous deadly shootings, or a history of racist comments against people who are Latinx or any other evidence. It will change my opinion.
     
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  7. bunge

    bunge BigSoccer Supporter

    Oct 24, 2000
    On his report, Eric Stillman listed himself as the victim and Adam as the “subject”. Gross.

    If we want to be honest, the cop had no idea who the kid was. No idea if he was involved in a gunshot, much less a crime. No probable cause to interact with the boy. At the end of the foot chase he shoots.

    Even if he thinks he saw a gun in someone’s hand, guns are legal in Illinois. I can legally stand in my alley at 2:30am with a gun in my hand.
     
  8. xtomx

    xtomx Member+

    Chicago Fire
    Sep 6, 2001
    Northern Wisconsin, but not far from civilization
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    He was not defending himself. The officer was not under threat of imminent death or great bodily harm.

    A perception that somebody may have a gun is not justification for self defense.
    The fact that somebody has a gun is not justification for self defense.

    We give way too much leeway to the police to execute individuals who may be suspects in a crime.
     
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  9. harrylee773

    harrylee773 Member+

    Jul 28, 2004
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    He had stopped running and remained with his back turned until further orders were given. It’s not like he had a white flag on him to wave so I don’t know what else the cop would’ve needed. The 21 y/o didn’t cause the cop to become a child killer, the cop’s action did, period. Again, I don’t give a shit about either of them to feel empathy but just as the cop will likely have regrets, so will the 21 year old- maybe more so because he actually knew the child.
     
  10. GHjelm

    GHjelm Member+

    Apr 23, 2008
    Batavia
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    That is gross and it definitely speaks to the cop's character or lack thereof. The problem isn't that the officer thought he saw a gun and fired. It's that he did see a gun and the way Adam complies, and he 100% was beginning to comply, could be misconstrued as turning to fire on the officer if the officer doesn't see him toss the gun. Adam tossed the gun out of view of the cop on the other side of the fence. I want to make it very clear here that I am not defending the cop's actions, but that at least I have a shred of understanding. Adam should be alive and that cop should have been going home to his family. Instead, Adam is dead and the cop should spend years in prison. It's a tragedy of bad decisions and poor circumstance. I hope all who made these bad decisions will pay for them.
     
  11. GHjelm

    GHjelm Member+

    Apr 23, 2008
    Batavia
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Again, I'm not trying to justify what the cop did. He made a terrible decision out of fear that turned out to be unjustified. What I'm taking umbrage with, in this specific case, is the characterization of the cop as an executioner. You're right, he was not defending himself because he was not being attacked. This is why he will (hopefully) pay for his crime. What I'm saying is that I can see how he might have thought he was defending himself.

    Having a gun is not a crime and is not grounds for someone to claim self defense (except maybe in Florida). Someone raising a gun toward you is. I think the cop thought that was what was happening. We all know that is not the case. I agree about the leeway. Too many cops have gotten away Scott free with pensions to boot. This is the ultimate failure of police to protect the citizenry.
     
  12. GHjelm

    GHjelm Member+

    Apr 23, 2008
    Batavia
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    I rewatched the video, which I really didn't want to do. There are about 2 seconds between when Adam stops, drops the gun behind the fence, turns toward the cop and he is shot. That is a heat of the moment decision that cop made as wrongly as possible. I don't see the cop in this scenario running through multiple options in his head and deciding he wants Adam to die. And honestly, I feel more empathy today for the 21 year old then I did yesterday.
     
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  13. sportscrazed2

    sportscrazed2 Member+

    Jul 30, 2008
    Mordor, Middle Earth
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  14. CMeszt

    CMeszt Member+

    Farewell Sweet Prince
    Jan 9, 2004
    Gentrification's Edge.
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    #4714 CMeszt, Apr 19, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2021
    Less than a second based on the video.

    Toledo looked like he tried to be clever and tosses the gun underhand behind the fence as he was turning to conceal that he ever had it rather than making it clear that he was dropping the gun. Stupid move, but the kid was only 13 so not exactly going to think straight in that moment. Cop knows he has the gun as he's chasing them, but can't see him drop it, so he's stuck in a split second decision as he turns toward him, in his mind, turning toward him while still armed with a weapon he knows was already fired less than a minute earlier.

    It's a minor detail in all this, but this was a ********up by COPA to just dump everything onto the internet rather than go through the videos in a press conference to clearly show what was and wasn't in the videos.
     
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  15. harrylee773

    harrylee773 Member+

    Jul 28, 2004
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    A cop that knows what the ******** he's doing gives clear instructions -especially if he KNOWS Toledo has a gun as he's chasing him- to drop the weapon then turn slowly with hands in the air. It's amazing to me how people (in general - not really specific to this thread) make excuses for the cop at every opportunity they get while acting as if the literal child he slaughtered doesn't deserve any benefit of the doubt whatsoever, never mind his accomplice. FFS, I expect more of someone with a badge, gun, and license to kill (we know this cop's gonna walk if he's even charged at all) than I do a little kid and a gangbanger, and considering how much money we spend on cops and misconduct settlements that result in their shitty behavior, maybe others need to adjust their expectations accordingly.
     
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  16. bunge

    bunge BigSoccer Supporter

    Oct 24, 2000
    There is no evidence of this. And standing in an alley at 2:30am with a gun isn’t a crime in the first place. Shots fired were initially reported but there was initially no crime the cops knew of. The cops escalated the situation because they know of no other course and it ended with them shooting a child.
     
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  17. bunge

    bunge BigSoccer Supporter

    Oct 24, 2000
    “Everybody has seen this video that came out from COPA, from the Civilian Office of Police Accountability. When you look at that video and that foot pursuit, you don't see a gun in Adam's hand. Adam takes a pause at the break in the fence. It looks like he's trying to get something out of his pocket, throws it down, turns around to the officer.”

    https://www.npr.org/2021/04/19/9886...-toledos-family-adam-died-because-he-complied
     
  18. GHjelm

    GHjelm Member+

    Apr 23, 2008
    Batavia
    Club:
    Chicago Fire

    Again, the cop was entirely wrong in his choices and made an incorrectable, terrible mistake. I hope he goes to prison for a long time. That said, the COPA video shows a gun in his hand. You could make the argument that there's no evidence that the officer saw it nor that he knew it was a gun for sure before shooting. Theres no evidence to the opposite, either. Adam is clearly holding a gun shaped object in his hand, and that object ended up being confirmed as a gun.

    Also, that quote is from the family's lawyer. If she was talking about the CBS video that cropped out the part of the frames showing the gun, then she'd be correct.

    I agree that the cops have no idea how to manage these situations. The fact that a child has a gun should not mean that child needs to die. It is, however, a fact that he had a gun and it was visible to the body cam and most likely the cop.

    60796d1f74da0300181e2078.jpeg
     
  19. CMeszt

    CMeszt Member+

    Farewell Sweet Prince
    Jan 9, 2004
    Gentrification's Edge.
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    It's interesting that we deem incarceration the appropriate corrective response from law enforcement mistakes but not, say, doctors and nurses.
     
  20. bunge

    bunge BigSoccer Supporter

    Oct 24, 2000
    If a surgeon decided to remove someone’s lung instead of the spleen that was supposed to be removed then yes, people would expect that surgeon to go to jail.
     
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  21. sportscrazed2

    sportscrazed2 Member+

    Jul 30, 2008
    Mordor, Middle Earth
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Shouldn't a trained police officer be a better marksman than a 13 year old kid? Odds kid even hits the target turning around before getting his brains blown out? Shouldn't cops assume some element of risk? Like yeah if the cop gets shot that would be sad (not really) but it's also in the job description you might get shot at. Untrained stupid kid surrendering vs trained officer? You play the odds no?
     
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  22. sportscrazed2

    sportscrazed2 Member+

    Jul 30, 2008
    Mordor, Middle Earth
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Donald Trump school of surgery?
     
  23. xtomx

    xtomx Member+

    Chicago Fire
    Sep 6, 2001
    Northern Wisconsin, but not far from civilization
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Totally different situations and not analogous at all.

    The doctor performing surgery with consent is just that, with consent. If the doctor's care falls below the standard of care, that is negligence.
    To be negligence, the doctor has to have a duty, breach that duty, the patient has to be injured and the breach of the duty has to be the proximate cause of the injury.

    A police has no consent to shoot somebody.

    By the way, here is a better analogy. If a doctor finds a 13 year old in an alley at 2:30 am, makes a "mistake" and performs surgery on the kid without consent and the kid dies...the doctor is going to jail. No question about it
    Hell, even if the kid does not die, the doctor has committed a criminal act.

    If you want to have the legislature criminalize medical work, have at it.
    The burden of proof is pretty damned high.
     
  24. bunge

    bunge BigSoccer Supporter

    Oct 24, 2000
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  25. GHjelm

    GHjelm Member+

    Apr 23, 2008
    Batavia
    Club:
    Chicago Fire

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