They don't have the same religious vs. nonreligious components that we do. Plus they've had 30 years to develop into what they are.
I guess that's my point, they don't have the religious factor so my guess is that the crude/vulgar chants would be more acceptable there then they are here but instead they have chosen to use the words bums and crummy and such. Maybe they have learned a thing or two in their 30 years. From what I've seen everyone in Utah would jump on board with any of their chant.
30 years and a major combination of groups happened for them to get to the point they're at now. Give it time. I think that space was the first thing all the groups needed, growth the next and then a bit of time to develop their own things. Timber Army didn't just happen, and a lot of hard feelings from the start had to be overcome along the way. The same will eventually happen I think with RSL, I'm just not sure if the timing is right. Also, certain majority religious groups here get really uptight not just with vulgarity but with alcohol consumption. That issue alone had a lot more to do with the splits and stuff than about anything else. Some of the predominant religion here do not think that it's good enough that they themselves don't drink, but also believe that nobody else should partake. Portland doesn't have much of that factor which explains a whole lot. And that is especially what i mean by the religious factor, it's not just the vulgarity, that's a lot less important than the alcohol consumption.
Odd. If you were to tell me that I had to choose between banning alcohol or banning organized vularity, I would ban the organized vulgarity.
I know you would, but others, not so much. And for you, if asked by you, I would actually stop (not sure I could get everyone else to do it though. Trust me, I've taken more grief over the years about the alcohol issue than anything.
First of all I don't know the history of the sg's or what problems they have had in the past or now so I will just take your word that the major reason for the splits is due to alcohol. I can understand that if you were all trying to have tailgate/social ect. and they center around or heavily include drinking why mormons and other non drinkers wouldn't want to come or on the other hand if you were going to a party and you enjoyed your beer then a dry party would be pretty lame. I can understand both sides of that but I have no idea how that transitions over into using crude and vulgar language in your chants and songs. Take any of the timbers chants and I don't care how drunk the guy next to me is I will sing those with him all night. On the other hand take half of the chants from salt city united and put sober people all around me and Im not going to join in. One thing I due find a little funny is that on their page when the chant includes a salty word it is written with the first letter and then ***. If it isn't ok to put it on the web then why would it be ok to scream it at the top of your lungs in a public setting?
Not quite sure this is true. There were/are plenty of Loyalists that were quite fond of partaking and were welcomed quite openly at all functions. Alcohol consumption was never the problem.
Not coming together seems to be due to pride within the SG's. I don't drink, but I don't care if you do. I don't swear, but don't care if you choose to. Unfortunately, the chants are profane and that turns a lot of people away. I will chant with them and substitute words, sure.. but the majority of those that are like me and won't use vulgar words, don't want to surround themselves with that. It won't be until the SG's choose to come off of their individual thrones and decide on some less vulgar lyrics for their chants that we could ever unite and develop a steady atmosphere like or better than portland or seattle. If there are one, two, or three chants with vulgarities in them... that's probably alright, but when the majority is that way... those "casual" supporters don't come back.
Agreed...Is it any surprise that the only chant that gets going through the entire stadium is the Ole-Ole-Ole Real Salt Lake chant? I understand that it's easy, and that is the biggest reason why it has caught on. But if you have a chant that is similarly as easy, but with any sort of a vulgar word, it will never be sung through the entire stadium.
I don't know why everyone thinks that 75% of the chants RCB/SCU does are vulgar, because it's not true. More like 40%. I would be happy to hear Salt Lake til I die spread, it's not hard, it's not vulgar. R-S-L is spreading now too, so let it happen. Like I said, not everything we do is vulgar, not even a majority, but people get caught up in the ones that are.
That's the issue though. Even if it's 15%, a good majority of fans are going to get caught up in it. It seems to me that the only way to create an atmosphere that rivals or exceeds Seattle and Portland is to give 100% of the fans an opportunity to get involved 100% of the time. We've all made changes in time, budgets, etc. over the past 6 years to support this team. Is it too much to ask to make a change in vocabulary for 90 minutes+ each week for the good of the team and the atmosphere?
As soon as you get get the whole crowd to do anything resembling this for even 45 minutes, sure. Until then, at least someone's making some sort of atmosphere. You get the prawn sandwich brigade going, like they did at times against Monterrey and sure. Until then, don't tell others how they should or should not support the team. You all seem to be forgetting that Seattle and Portland have had a 30 year head start to get to where they are. They didn't have this at first, they didn't have it for a good 15 or so years. Even then, a lot of Seattle's vocal support is quite contrived. Before the jump to MLS, there were only like 20 or 30 in their supporter's group. Portland, on the other had, Timber Army has been like this for a while and hands off to them. The biggest point you are missing is that to make it real, it has to happen naturally, like the Ole Ole chant has. We don't want fake like Seattle where people have to literally be told what to do like at a baseball game, we want like Portland where it happens. That takes time and a shift in culture. We are making the first baby steps. Until the whole stadium is joining in with anything more than ole ole. Instead of criticizing RCB/SCU, why don't you either take an active position in a group, or do your own part to create atmosphere. Until then, stop telling others how they need to do things. It's quite frankly getting pretty ********ing tired.
To be fair, I'm not sure anyone is criticizing anyone here. Just about everyone praises RSB/SCU and appreciates them for the noise they make. I think the only thing going on is people telling you what it would take for them to join the supporters group full time. A lot of people would love to join but don't feel like they can now in the current environment. Not sure that it's really complaining or criticizing for them to tell you the conditions under which they would gladly join in. No one is asking you to change anything if you are okay with the way things are. But if you do want to approach anything even close to a full stadium, or even large sections of the stadium, participating, there are going to have to be some concessions made. That's life in our great state. If that isn't really what you want right now, don't worry about changing a thing. Keep making the noise that you do. And I thank you for it.
Well why don't we get those lyrics posted and i can perhaps arrange getting a few thousand printed off for an upcoming home game..
I get that, but at the same time, there are plenty of groups in the stadium that they CAN join. Concessions will happen as soon as there is an alternative. As the rest of the stadium has started chanting, we've been more than happy to join in and help foster that. The main point I want to make is that with the everything RCB/SCU are, we've grown 300% in the last two years. So whatever we are doing has appeal. The Loyalist, who do exactly what you're saying you want all but don't exist anymore. So you tell me what works. If you want the atmosphere like Portland, instead of telling me how to make it, do something to create it yourself. Even though I do not speak for the group, I think I'd get almost universal agreement that until there is something else that ALREADY exists, our way IS the best alternative. Sure we'll make concessions, but only if there is truly something that's better, which so far nobody's demonstrated. In short, we'll drop the f-word as soon as others start doing something different. But since 2005, the current supporters groups, asside from really just 2 instances, are the only real atmosphere that's existed. Make something else happen and sure we'll join in, we'll embrace it, as we have with the two instances of the whole crowd getting into making noise. Until then, the numbers show that our way works so far. I get you want to have something like Timber Army, and really, so do we. As for the chants, talk to Trev or Judge, I think they actually have something like that already. I know they have recordings of them.
I'm not really sure I gave an opinion about what I wanted to happen or not. I personally think that words are just words and only have as much power as you give them. It doesn't bother me at all. I wasn't trying to get you to change or anything like that. I was just trying to point out that I didn't think anyone was criticizing or complaining about RCB/SCU. They were just presenting their opinions on what they believe will lead to a much larger group being willing to join the SGs in the south end. For me, it's kind of a chicken/egg thing. A lot of people won't join in until the vulgarities stop. But you say the vulgarities won't stop until other people start joining in. At this point, RCB/SCU ARE the SGs for RSL. People probably don't even know that other groups exist and that there are alternatives. But even when they do, they are still forced to basically stand next to RCB/SCU in the south end and have to listen to the vulgarities that they are trying to avoid anyway. That, more than anything, probably led to the demise of the Loyalists. There just weren't enough of them willing to subject themselves to what they personally considered obscene. That's what is going to be hard in doing what you suggest. RCB/SCU have obtained enough critical mass that will make it hard for another group to drown them out enough so they don't have to hear them. I wonder what would happen if for one game RCB/SCU tried no vulgar chants and publicized it widely. I wonder what if a lot more people would show up to give the SGs a try or not. As I said before though, I appreciate everything that RCB/SCU do to provide noise at the game. Thanks for the effort. Keep it up. Donk, I can't give you rep, but I just wanted to say thanks for the measure and intelligent conversation on this subject. I know from past experience just how touchy this subject can be.
By joining in, I simply meant starting their own chants, where ever in the stadium they happen to be. Whenever Ole breaks out, the south end joins in and stops any of the vulgar chants even if we are in the middle of one. And my opinion on the demise of the Loyalists is not something I want to discuss in an open forum here, but it had a lot less to do with proximity to RCB than it had to do with internal problems. I think my biggest issue and I think it's the same for everyone in RCB/SCU is that for years we've been asked to make concessions, but at the same time, and we have on some issues, but for every time we concede something, we do not get reciprocity. That's all really we've asked for. If you want us to stop _____ then what are you going to do that makes us want to stop? At the most basic level, that's what this is about. We're frankly tired of constantly being asked to do things someone else's way and then having those same people no do their part in return. And by that, I'm largely referring to the FO. Trust me, we don't want to ruin other's experience, but at the same time, we don't want others to ruin our experience either. So far, the concessions have not been a 2 way street and we take issue with that.
so what would work here? A bunch of guys saying ******** every three words? I've sat by you guys (at different venues and games) quite a few times and this theory that only 40% (or whatever number you used) of your chants are non-vulgar is simply a lie. You guys know it too, don't deny it. The ones that the guys really get into are the ones where they can drop a ******** or a shit or some other profanity. You aren't appealing to the larger crowd on purpose. You point out a 300% increase, thats great, but you still can't fill the lower part of the south end. With how much people have been focusing on RSL, that should have changed by now.
And maybe we like how we do things and the crowd we do attract. Want me to be honest here, I'm sure I'll piss a lot off. I am of course not speaking for the group here. I spend 40 hours a week working with a bunch of Mormons who think that the only way someone can be happy is to be Mormon just like them. They constantly hound me to go to church activities. They give me a hard time about my coffee in the morning (while they bring in a 100 oz. mug of diet coke). They think the worst thing someone can do is drink a beer or say the word ********. I quite honestly can't stand it. Mormon heaven to me sounds like a form of hell. I think the South Park version of Mormon heaven is about right. If I let a word fly that they don't agree with, I hear about it and get to listen to how much hearing that makes the Baby Jesus cry or something. It gets really, really old. When I do about anything in the community, same thing. Where is the only place I can escape the hold of Mormonism? The bar. Look it's great you want to live that way, but I really don't and am not interested. I am quite happy in my heathen ways, believe it or not. I probably sound like a bigot, and if you feel that way, fine. The reality is, I have no problem accepting your way of life as long as you can accept that mine really is the right way for me. If you don't drink, fine, but don't tell me I can't. If you don't use vulgarity, fine, but don't tell me I can't. Yes, I understand that in ways it inhibits the growth of the group, but frankly if I wanted to join a boring Mormon group, I would have joined the Loyalists. This is not to say that Mormons aren't welcome, they are. Just not the type of Mormon who won't recognize that maybe not everyone wants to be like that. And yes, there are Mormons in the group and I like them and respect them. So why should spend my free time, my relaxation time, toeing the Mormon line? At the same time, I do think that it's not a bad idea to tone down the profanity. If it were up to me, we would. But at the same time, I'm not interested in a group that doesn't allow me to say what I want for fear of offending someone or let me drink a beer because some people haven't outgrown Prohibition. Quite frankly i'm ********ing sick of this discussion. I'm not telling you how to support the team, but some of you here keep trying to tell me how to support the team. Sure I want RSL to win, I want the supporters groups to grow. I think there is a compromise to be made, but at the same time, in my experience, the compromises all seem to be one sided. I really want an honest answer on this: how many of those who are offended by vulgarity would join a group that didn't have vulgarity but did have a lot of drunk people? My guess would be that even if we did drop the vulgarity, which I really do think will eventually happen, that people would start to complain about drunkenness. Those same people are not willing to not sit next to someone who's drunk just as much as they won't sit next to someone who curses. I'm not giving up my beer, I'm an adult, I don't drink and drive (thank god for TRAX and frontrunner) and so I should be treated as an adult. Again, this is my opinion only and does not reflect anything official from RCB or SCU. I'm sure I've offended someone and come across as a bigot, for that, I'm sorry you took it that way. This is Utah, us non-Mormons sometimes get really sick of the tyrany of the majority and the theocracy of this state. It would serve the Mormons well to understand this.
I can't help adding a few comments at this point. I'll note that I most emphatically am NOT a Mormon but find chants like ******** YOU ASSHOLE or WE ALL ********ED YOUR GRANDMOTHER to be in poor taste. (have to wait and see what the big soccer profanity filter does with that one, just repeating what I hear over and over at the matches) You have the right to yell whatever you want of course but please understand that it isn't just Mormons you are offending. I'll also note that while I used to often drink at sporting events, that I chose to stop drinking well over a decade ago (simply a matter of personal choice), but have no problem with someone next to me at an event enjoying a cold refreshing adult beverage or two as long as they are responsible and have means to travel home safely afterwards.
And honestly, I do agree that the organized stuff like that needs to stop. The organized grandma ones actually have, generally, been stopped. The problem is, someone who's not leadership gets it going, most of the group joins in and then good luck stopping it. That is one that the groups has backed off of. I know in the Colorado game, it was started and then quickly cut off. They dropped ******** you ref last year. I think that leadership does understand this issue and is working to address it. but leadership isn't the draconian type that will demand it be their way or the highway. In my opinion, that's exactly what was wrong with the Loyalists and that's why they fell apart. This sort of thing, getting pulled by both sides, is why i don't want to be in leadership anymore.
Again this isn't a mormon thing, There is a reason you only hear minor swearing on tv and more then one f-bomb makes a movie restricted to 18 and over. Mormons haven't made it this way society as a whole has. To answer your question I would rather sit by a bunch of guys drinking then a bunch of them using this type of language 40% of the time.
There are idiots in every group, we all know this. This isn't going to be "fixed" overnight, either. The chants that rub some the wrong way are going to happen from time to time, its part of the passion. I love that the sg's are growing. That there are more people who want to watch RSL as much as possible. Its great. The mormon issue should not be something we look to correct here. The type of mormon you are describing belongs in the family section with earmuffs on. They probably don't belong at a sporting event in general as the athletes have *gasp* tattoos. Those closed minded ignorant self righteous people belong at home watching reruns of general conference. I have no problem with drinking I have no problem with a little vulgarity (******** the cRapids, man) I dont, however, want the south end to turn into a punk scene. I don't think it is or is necessarily following that path, just a worry that needs to be kept in line. The big elephant we are all ignoring here, however, is the Latino groups above SCU/RCB. Its a joke that they can't seem to do anything together. I understand having differences and thus creating a separate group... but seemingly competing with one another each match as to who can drum the loudest is driving me nuts. Their lack of cordination (or so it seems) with the groups below them is sad, as well. I know RCB and SCU have reached out a hand to them, they just don't seem to care. That "I believe" chant is killed, every single time, by LBR/UR.