Charting the Arsenal (2007 - 2008) (R)

Discussion in 'Arsenal' started by Val1, Aug 25, 2007.

  1. Skizz

    Skizz Guest

    Rep+1 Silva. The words nail and head come to mind.
     
  2. Rungostar

    Rungostar Member

    Apr 4, 2006
    Washington, DC
    The stats are interesting, yet as we all know only tell part of the story. It tells us who touches the ball the most, who gets in positions to get the ball, who players trust with the ball, who is expected to and connects the play, etc. You can also generally tell who plays where on the pitch.

    Some of the things that are harder to quantify: Who played a killer ball? Who was at fault for the turnover, the passer or the recipient? Where is the ball being turned over? Who plays the balls that result in shots? Who plays the final ball to the forwards? All interesting questions that would require a salary to answer.

    Back to what this does tell us. As I've said repeatedly, Hleb is most useful running from the center of the pitch. He was bought as a result of his performances in that position in Germany and for Belarus. Thus, its not shocking to see all that he creates as he drifts central or plays behind strikers. It's also not shocking that the players see this creativity in practice each day and use him and Cesc as our primary outlets. Think what one wants, but the numbers tell us that much. They might not say everything, but they surely tell us that the players know he is creative, trust him on the ball and that he gets in positions to support other players. In short, regardless of what the fans may yell on a particular day, the numbers give Hleb a glowing recommendation from his teammates. It's hard to discount such a glowing recommendation from those who matter most on the pitch.
     
  3. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    I completely agree.

    FWIW, and of course IMHO, the problems last season were more about all our best strikers being injured, plus too many important defenders being out.
     
  4. thebigman

    thebigman Member+

    May 25, 2006
    Birmingham
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    nice civilised debate

    must be the first ive been involved with
     
  5. goonsquad

    goonsquad Member

    Apr 1, 2004
    Los Angeles
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Agreed. Do we want to be the team that wins with inspired passing and movement, or do we want to be just another English team that "gets a cross in" from the touchline? Sorry, but I'm willing to wait through the growing pains if it means this team becomes the special team we know it can be.
     
  6. alain_9510

    alain_9510 New Member

    Nov 26, 2006
    Seattle
    As skizz said, you hit the nail right on the head :)
     
  7. kanonier

    kanonier Member+

    Nov 7, 2005
    Bloomington, Ind.
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    well, we've got half that problem developing now. Let's hope it doesn't progress.
     
  8. martymarts

    martymarts Member

    Mar 11, 2003
    NYC
    I'd be interested to see the average number of touches a player takes before making a pass? I'd guess the lowest is Gilberto and the highest Adebayor, Rosicky and Hleb. The way we play, unless your bombing down the wing, more than 3 touches is often too many? The only player who wouldn't be covered by this is Hleb, who has the ability to make things happen by taking players on. I wish he would take less touches in the box (case in point the goal!) and I hope that he can maintain greater consistancy this term. He took along time to get going against Citeh, but, a good injury-free season for him could mean a good season for us?

    The stats don't show it, but I repeat my doubts about Rosicky. He nearly always cuts inside, is slow to get the ball into the channel, when Clichy is making an overlap, and looks totally unconvincing when he takes players on. Cesc is still not fully match fit. He was fading against Citeh, but Kudos for digging deep enough to find the goal.

    The two stats that I'm most concerned about is 3 CB's + injuries =?Cb's and Chances made/Goals scored x 100 = ?%. The closer the first is to 3 and the second is to 25 the happier I'll be.

    Come on you Gunners!!!
     
  9. NorthBank

    NorthBank Member+

    Arsenal; NYRB
    United States
    Mar 29, 2006
    Connecticut
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So Val,

    Do you have Hleb's #'s for any other matches, especially from last season?

    I admit he drove me a bit crazy last year w/ turnovers. What became indelible in my mind, was the image of him with the ball stuck to his foot, holding it too long when there was a teammate to pass to, and then getting his pocket picked. (Reyes also drove me nuts with this)

    Certainly Hleb has been a new man ever since pre-season this year, and it's a big plus for our results.

    But all of my judgements of Hleb last year vs. this year are qualitative and subjective. So I'm wondering if your quantitive analysis would echo this obvious (to me anyway) improvement in Alex between last year and this.

    p.s. I agree with a prior comment that a turnover should only be if you truly have possession in the first place, and then give it up. I think basketball is clear on this. Your Gilberto example of him heading clear a cross from the opposition, in my mind, is not a turnover. But however, you define the term, I'd be curious to see last year vs. this year comparison for AH.
     
  10. Val1

    Val1 Member+

    Arsenal
    Mar 12, 2004
    MD's Eastern Shore
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Check the thread titled The Case for Alexsandr Hleb. I think I posted the results of two games, both big games, one vs Chelsea and one vs Man Utd. For those games I tracked total possession time, trying to find out who held the ball the longest. It was then that I started thinking that Hleb was the person who (1) put the ball in Cesc's feet, and (2) didn't turn the ball over nearly as much as he was receiving criticism for.

    If anyone has a copy of the Man City game, I'd love to go back and track who Denilson passed to. Or maybe I can dig that up with the Telgraph stats...
     
  11. surfcam

    surfcam Member

    Sep 8, 2004
    Corpus Christi, TX
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That won't do! You're a jerk!!!;):D

    Great thread though and it is interesting to see the stats and different takes on them. As others have said, stats are only part of the picture and looking at how they team plays/reacts is key.

    Good work Val!!
     
  12. KevTheGooner

    KevTheGooner Help that poor man!

    Dec 10, 1999
    THOF
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Andorra
    As he should. Any attacking mid should be given the license to take chances and make mistakes. An attacking mid that just plays the ball back to safety everytime would be a disaster.
     
  13. surfcam

    surfcam Member

    Sep 8, 2004
    Corpus Christi, TX
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    As Dave M would say "Attacking midfielder. It's all in the name, innit!"

    There have been some good points about the other players learning how Hleb brings the ball forward and delivers it. Once they get the gist of it, there will be more link ups and goal opportunities IMO.

    I think Hleb has made a dramatic improvement over last season. This is likely due to him and the team as a whole. There seemed to be some really good work done in preseason and it is starting to take hold and be effective on the pitch. Hope it continues.
     
  14. Rungostar

    Rungostar Member

    Apr 4, 2006
    Washington, DC
    As Cesc alluded to in the guardian article, I think the dramatic improvement is a function of Henry leaving and players being able to finally step forward and be more assertive without fear of the glare.
     
  15. RealMadGunner

    RealMadGunner Member

    Jul 19, 2006
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    More stats i found here ..
    Code:
    Team 	       Goals 	Shots 	On Target 	Shot Accuracy 	Succ Passes 	  	 
    Arsenal 	7 	    50 	         29 	      58% 	      1283
    
    We top this table of shot accuracy .. Bloody impressive ..
     
  16. revelationx

    revelationx Member+

    Jun 5, 2006
    London

    Interesting page of stats. It should however quantify things slightly better and show the number of games played. Arsenal and Liverpool have only played 4 matches to everyone else's 5. One game less when teams have played 12 or so matches is not so significant but one game less now means some teams only have had 80% of the playing time of the other teams. Hence why no Liverpool or Arsenal player is in the top list for passers and tacklers. Also as the sample of matches increases the fixtures even themselves out in terms of away matches and difficulty of opponents. So the table becomes more indicative of trends as the number of matches increases.
     
  17. flyerhawk

    flyerhawk Member

    Feb 5, 2006
    Hoboken NJ
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Rosicky is SUPPOSED to cut inside. Seems pretty convincing to me when he makes a lateral cut at the top of the box to get an open shot or look for a player cutting in.
     
  18. revelationx

    revelationx Member+

    Jun 5, 2006
    London
    I've just noticed the Player Stats section on the Telegraph site.

    Worth a look if you want to compare player stats. You can look at stats for all games or just for a specific game. The SkySports stats are good for Club stats but the Telegraph ones are useful for specific player stats.

    http://telegraph.jumpmediagroup.com/PlayerStat.aspx?p1id=5127&p2id=3789
     
  19. RealMadGunner

    RealMadGunner Member

    Jul 19, 2006
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    ^Good site .. I compared Fat Frank and Cesc and i'm surprised ..
     
  20. antifan

    antifan Member+

    Aug 14, 2004
    The Scottie
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Me too.

    They're the same weight?! :confused:

    I don't trust those stats.
     
  21. RealMadGunner

    RealMadGunner Member

    Jul 19, 2006
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Wow !! Didn't even look at that .. I was looking at minutes on the pitch and passing accuracy stuff !! But they weigh the same ? :eek: Impossible ..
     
  22. antifan

    antifan Member+

    Aug 14, 2004
    The Scottie
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Utterly impossible, and i didn't trust those other stats either.
     
  23. RealMadGunner

    RealMadGunner Member

    Jul 19, 2006
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    More stats, if anyone still interested, can be found here ..
    [just for the record, the stats above completely threw me off balance and i don't believe in numbers anymore]
    Code:
    Table 1.1 Who will be wearing the golden boot?
     
    Team 	Age 	Position 	Player 	Mins 	G 	G(90) 	Change 	Above average %
    Chelsea 	29 	F 	Didier Drogba 	2583 	20 	0.71 	Up 	82
    Arsenal 	24 	F 	Robin Van Persie 	1408 	11 	0.70 	Up 	77.5
    Man United 	22 	AM 	Cristiano Ronaldo 	2619 	16 	0.54 	Down 	65
    Tottenham 	27 	F 	Robbie Keane 	1491 	9 	0.54 	Down 	69.5
    Reading 	24 	F 	Kevin Doyle 	2266 	13 	0.50 	Up 	66
    Man United 	29 	F 	Louis Saha 	1506 	8 	0.48 	Up 	65
    Newcastle  	32 	F 	Mark Viduka 	2077 	11 	0.48 	Down 	76.5
    Liverpool 	27 	F 	Dirk Kuyt 	2256 	11 	0.46 	Up 	52.5
    Tottenham 	23 	F 	Darren Bent 	2929 	15 	0.45 	Up 	55
    Tottenham 	25 	F 	Jermain Defoe 	1764 	9 	0.45 	Down 	67
    Arsenal 	23 	F 	Emmanuel Adebayor 	2526 	12 	0.44 	Up 	55
    Liverpool 	26 	F 	Peter Crouch 	1544 	8 	0.44 	Down 	63.5
    Blackburn 	30 	F 	Benedict McCarthy 	2507 	12 	0.44 	Down 	54
    Man United 	23 	F 	Carlos Tevez 	2018 	9 	0.42 	Up 	40
    Man United 	22 	F 	Wayne Rooney 	2595 	11 	0.39 	Down 	58
    Newcastle  	23 	F 	Obafemi Martins 	2709 	12 	0.39 	Up 	25
    Reading 	23 	F 	Leroy Lita 	2237 	10 	0.39 	Up 	34
    Chelsea 	22 	F 	Salomon Kalou 	2218 	9 	0.38 	Up 	37
    Aston Villa 	28 	F 	John Carew 	2394 	10 	0.38 	Up 	32
    Tottenham 	26 	F 	Dimitar Berbatov 	2636 	11 	0.37 	Down 	49.5
    
     
  24. RealMadGunner

    RealMadGunner Member

    Jul 19, 2006
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    More stats:
    Code:
    Arsenal	Team                              	Arsenal
    2006/07	Season                            	2007/08
    5      	Games Played                      	5      
           	Goal Attempts                     	       
    6      	Goals                             	10     
    1.20   	Ave Goals per game                	2.00   
    75     	Shots (excl blocked shots)        	64     
    41%    	% Shots on Target                 	58%    
    8%     	% Goals to Shots                  	16%    
           	Passing                           	       
    2,413  	Short Passes                      	1,832  
    230    	Long Passes                       	253    
    85%    	Overall Pass Completion %         	80%    
           	Duels                             	       
    575    	Duels                             	533    
    51%    	Duels Won %                       	53%    
           	Defending                         	       
    3      	Goals Conceded                    	4      
    0.60   	Ave goals conceded per game       	0.80   
    132    	Tackles                           	131    
    77%    	Tackles Won %                     	84%    
    144    	Blocks, Clearances & Interceptions	341    
           	                                  	       
           	                                  	       
           	                                  	       
           	                                  	       
           	                                  	       
           	                                  	       
    
    
    Looking at our previous year and this season's passing and stuff, it appears we have becoem a bit more direct and defensively improved, not by much though .. Out short passes have decreased considerably, the shots on target % has increased considerably, the block, clearances has increased by an impressive number and we're winning more tackles.. Only our pass completion % has decreased, which i am quite surprised by ..
     
  25. NorthBank

    NorthBank Member+

    Arsenal; NYRB
    United States
    Mar 29, 2006
    Connecticut
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Thanks for posting that RMG... very interesting. I have noticed the more direct, long-ball stuff, especially to Adebayor. That's a new weapon in their arsenal which I always missed a bit in the past.

    I also wonder where Setanta got their data, i.e. last year vs. this year, through 5 games. Does anyone know a website that has stuff like this?

    I made another post in the EPL forum looking for a website that would show historical league tables, week by week. So you could compare prior years standings/points/stats to this year... up through 5 weeks, for example.

    Didn't get any responses to that post, so I figured maybe I'd ask it again here.
     

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